Bigthink - Idea Comments Feed

Comment on: Does the fear of death cause irrational belief?

Bigthink — Tue, 06 May 2008 16:42:37 +0100

"How about gaining salvation through science and spirituality?"

Its all a part of it...

"Where are moving to roughly?"
Martha's Vineyard for the summer... I work at a tennis club. But I have some time off and will be visiting family and such...

Comment on: Does the fear of death cause irrational belief?

Bigthink — Tue, 06 May 2008 16:25:01 +0100

musycks, Thanks for the tip.

pokoj, Good idea with the bookmarking. How about gaining salvation through science and spirituality?

Where are moving to roughly?

Comment on: Does the fear of death cause irrational belief?

Bigthink — Tue, 06 May 2008 14:51:43 +0100

Mus, whad'ya to to jesse? play nice, now...

"Now you want your cake and to eat it too?"

I am a jolly fat man...

"how can you support the position that Jesus, meant what he said literally, and then because the implications are unpalatable and conflict with your rosy picture of him, that he meant it as a parable?"

I didn't. You didn't give me time to respond, if you read my whole post I said I'd point you to some literature on the topic of salvation, (and, relevant as it may be, Jesse sent me a whole essay on the topic, and we are on the verge of discussing it when I get settled down again-I'm packing up and moving up the country in the next few days so all my good stuff is packed away)

I promise I will discuss this with you when I have all the resources available... I can't keep everything in my head, it would explode... Do you think I'd let something like this go easily through my doubt system?

"that section is not a parable (yes he used them)... it is explicit?"

Not a parable, but it also wasn't entirely literal. He didn't mean that if we stepped through His body we would meet God. It was implying that He is the vessel of salvation...

"how can it be read as something it is not? the fact that you then extrapolate a conclusion the information does not merit, is a measure to which you have to deny the obvious to maintain the facade of the Xtian 'loving' god philosophy."

ITS NOT READING IT AS SOMETHING ITS NOT he just wasn't being literal in the sense of "The only way to the Father is through Me, so step into this portal I opened in my stomach and we'll go meet God." That would be a literal interpretation of that statement. We need to read between the lines...

"yes this is a serious topic. We both have senses of humor, but we both know when we hit a nerve."

Actually I'm not sure if I did hit a nerve, if so which one? I apologise... I take this seriously because it is one of the most important aspects of the salvation of humanity...

SS- I have a special folder in my bookmarks for all the big think topics I comment on... it helps to keep track until they make some improvements to the site...

Comment on: Does the fear of death cause irrational belief?

Bigthink — Tue, 06 May 2008 08:34:20 +0100

ss.. welcome back brother.
yes, it's taken a sharp turn topic wise, but come on in, the waters fine!
pokoj and I are happy to keep sluggin' out if it's sleepy time in Ohio....
this one is a good one, and after Jesse starts speaking to me again, I think he might have a swing here as well?

and I try to remember what convos I have on the go, as a mental exercise..but it ain't easy.. too few brain cells left as they die off..

there is a recent activities icon on your homepage? but not overly useful...
rock on..

Comment on: Does the fear of death cause irrational belief?

Bigthink — Tue, 06 May 2008 04:12:11 +0100

I almost forgot about this post, and it's mine! I never got back with Hilge, and now he's drawn into FA's debate! You two are carrying on, and rightly so.

This faith and beliefs topic has become a real spiderweb, and I still can't keep track. Do you guys actually know where you've been, or have a system for keeping watch on active commentary?

Snooze and you lose I guess.

Sorry to interject.

Comment on: Does the fear of death cause irrational belief?

Bigthink — Tue, 06 May 2008 03:10:38 +0100

pokoj... now you want your cake and to eat it too?
how can you support the position that Jesus, meant what he said literally, and then because the implications are unpalatable and conflict with your rosy picture of him, that he meant it as a parable? that section is not a parable (yes he used them)... it is explicit? how can it be read as something it is not? the fact that you then extrapolate a conclusion the information does not merit, is a measure to which you have to deny the obvious to maintain the facade of the Xtian 'loving' god philosophy.
yes this is a serious topic. We both have senses of humor, but we both know when we hit a nerve.
keep swingin' mate!

Comment on: Does the fear of death cause irrational belief?

Bigthink — Mon, 05 May 2008 13:43:07 +0100

"I struggle with the idea that someone who leads a good life can de denied paradise under your belief system?
Every atheist, Muslim, Jew, Bhuddist, et al, whether they devote their lives to helping the needy or are a mass murderer are denied entry to your paradise equally, because they do not recognise gentle Jesus.
This does not take into account those who don't even get the opportunity to hear about the 'good news'... to me this is the poison pill at the heart of Christianity."

These ideas have all been discussed at great lengths, and they need to be, they are not a topic for light conversation. You can't boil all this down to yes or no. The end result is God cannot be unjust... I'll look around for the best literature to point you too...

Comment on: Does the fear of death cause irrational belief?

Bigthink — Mon, 05 May 2008 13:41:04 +0100

Yeah, but He did mainly teach with parables... anyone can see that...

Comment on: Does the fear of death cause irrational belief?

Bigthink — Mon, 05 May 2008 07:43:47 +0100

thanks pokoj.. I happen to think the Jesus of the gospels meant what he said as well, it is very direct and unambiguous....

which leads to my following points.. I struggle with the idea that someone who leads a good life can de denied paradise under your belief system?
Every atheist, Muslim, Jew, Bhuddist, et al, whether they devote their lives to helping the needy or are a mass murderer are denied entry to your paradise equally, because they do not recognise gentle Jesus.
This does not take into account those who don't even get the opportunity to hear about the 'good news'... to me this is the poison pill at the heart of Christianity.

My belief system does no such wicked thing to you.

Comment on: Does the fear of death cause irrational belief?

Bigthink — Mon, 05 May 2008 07:04:22 +0100

"I had a look at your godfest with Jesse! so JC is the reason and the vessle?"
Yes
"so you agree that he said 'The only way to the father is through me'? and that he meant it? yes or no will do......."
Yes

Comment on: Does the fear of death cause irrational belief?

Bigthink — Sun, 04 May 2008 03:45:46 +0100

Hilge... pretty sure Faceless has spotted this and started a thread of it's own... he mentions Darwin predicted this problem and I'll go along happily.. I said before it's incredible we actually have the record we do given the rarity of fossils.
The model holds, Gould or no Gould.

pokoj... I had a look at your godfest with Jesse! so JC is the reason and the vessle?
so you agree that he said 'The only way to the father is through me'? and that he meant it? yes or no will do.......

Comment on: Does the fear of death cause irrational belief?

Bigthink — Sat, 03 May 2008 12:15:27 +0100

Able to sneak on for a moment...

Mus, I don't think you are understanding my argument. You can agree or disagree with Gould and the argument would still stand.

I don't know how else to say it - Punctuated Equilibrium as an idea would never exist if there was evidence in the fossil record to support continuous gradual evolution. What does the existence of this idea say about the evidence in the fossil record?

As far as people taking what he said out of context, yes they did, but I have not. Others made it seem like he said that cats woke up one morning and gave birth to dogs; if you go back and read what I wrote, you will see that is not what I am doing. So they were wrong - fine, still that doesn't deal with this argument.

Nice try though...

Comment on: Does the fear of death cause irrational belief?

Bigthink — Sat, 03 May 2008 08:08:38 +0100

mr. wiki-wiki says:

"Evolution is often said to be both theory and fact. This statement, or something similar, is frequently seen in biological literature. The point of this statement is to differentiate the concept of the "fact of evolution", namely the observed changes in populations of organisms over time, from the "theory of evolution", namely the current scientific explanation of how those changes came about."

Comment on: Does the fear of death cause irrational belief?

Bigthink — Sat, 03 May 2008 08:06:10 +0100

"You tell me what Jesus meant by.. 'I am the way the truth and the light.. the only way to the father is through me'..."

I'm going to move this to topic:
http://www.bigthink.com/faith-beliefs/9980

"Did he say it, and did he mean what he said? I can't be clearer..."

I wasn't sure if by "he" you meant me... if you thought I said something out of the ordinary... thats all...

"from there flows Xtianity surely?"
Yep... good imagery though: flows... implies what I've been saying... it is not stagnant...

Comment on: Does the fear of death cause irrational belief?

Bigthink — Sat, 03 May 2008 03:06:46 +0100

Hilge... I didn't lump punct eq in with Craig. As to that specific idea, it was propounded by a chap who said, 'evolution is a fact'. How does that help the god cheerleaders? are you saying evolution is not a fact? Like all theories in science Darwins has adpated to new information and not yet been refuted by being unable to incorporate new info into it's tehoretical paradigm. No one realistically expects after all this time that it will be overturned for something radically different... but here's the good bit.. if something could scientifically prove beyond doubt it was errant, then that would become the next accepted model with which to view information.. that's how science works.
You say Gould.... I say Dennett.
firstly Gould refuted Xtians quoting him out of context..in 'Evolution as a fact and theory' in 1981.
Dennett was scathing of Gould, more so than other writers, and gave Gould the opportunity to correct any factual errors before publishing his refutations, he met Gould and saw his notes. Gould was pissed off and started howling to everyone how bad Dennett was... Dennett responded with 'Darwinian Fundamentalism' an exchange.. he has support from John Maynard Smith and Richard Dawkins et al..
selective quoting of Gould is trumped by any quotes from those gentleman.

pokoj..
You tell me what Jesus meant by.. 'I am the way the truth and the light.. the only way to the father is through me'..

Did he say it, and did he mean what he said? I can't be clearer...

from there flows Xtianity surely?

Comment on: Does the fear of death cause irrational belief?

Bigthink — Fri, 02 May 2008 16:50:36 +0100

Pokoj, I'm using naturalism as a word to describe the philosophy that naturally flows from atheism - all that exists is natural. If naturalism is true then there must be a physical explanation for origins. When you presuppose naturalism, you end up with an explanation that has to be evolutionary.

See, for me, this was one of the biggest obstacles to overcome as I was making the journey towards seeing Christianity as actually true - how could seemingly intelligent people accept evolution if it wasn't true? I really did not believe Christians when they would argue against it. But as I read and studied, I began to realize that the arguments being presented were not evidence, they were presuppositions. In fact, it seemed to be a lot less scientific and a lot more philosophical. That's when I started to have a rational explanation for the acceptance of evolution by intelligent people - they presuppose naturalism so that any other answer becomes "unscientific." Any evidence that suggests anything else is out. But that makes perfect sense to them, because "of course we know that all is natural."

Comment on: Does the fear of death cause irrational belief?

Bigthink — Fri, 02 May 2008 16:35:45 +0100

SS- be safe, look forward to seeing you back...

Comment on: Does the fear of death cause irrational belief?

Bigthink — Fri, 02 May 2008 16:35:01 +0100

mus...
"Did he say it? and did he mean what he said? this should be one of the easier tongue twisters for your team! c'mon... don't equivocate... it's the core of what it is to say you are a Xtian, that you believe this kerygma."

Please rephrase... having trouble deciphering this one...

I wasn't equivocating in any case... I'm trying to say we don't change the core message, we add to our understanding of it... and that in itself is proof that Christianity (apart from those purists who are making up less and less of the Christian community, yet still manage to be the representation in the media) is not stagnating, or rigid in its beliefs. I know I bring up C.S. Lewis like he's the only Christian apologetic that ever mattered, but he's one of many, including present day representatives (look up Rob Bell.)

I didn't think that I would have to tell you, of all people, to not take the representatives we have of Christianity in the media and the Christian Right as the whole of the community.

Hilge... I know I'm butting in, I have nothing to add to the debate with you and SS, I didn't realise evolution was so contested within the scientific community... I just have one question... what do you mean when you say "naturalism" because there are many definitions...

Comment on: Does the fear of death cause irrational belief?

Bigthink — Fri, 02 May 2008 13:19:02 +0100

BTW, I am also leaving this afternoon and may not get a chance to look again until Sunday afternoon, but I'll catch up then.

Comment on: Does the fear of death cause irrational belief?

Bigthink — Fri, 02 May 2008 13:14:27 +0100

SS, have a good trip.

As to your question: "Who is backing Gould on this one?"

Well, the theory was originally proposed by Gould and Eldredge and has created quite the controversy. While you will find evolutionints who disagree with him, to set him aside as some fringe scientist would be absolutely ridiculous - he is a well known figure. But here is the point that I am making:

You started by saying essentially that belief in God is irrational. I believe that it is rational and that naturalism is irrational. I then gave a positive defense and a challenge.

No one is dealing with any of the positive defenses offered, because they do not come from atheists. I think this is foolish, you can't just trust people who believe like you do to always be honest with the facts, but nevertheless, at this point, when I have brought up a Christian rationalist or offered a defense, the only thing I have gotten back is something like "well, he's just wrong because this atheist over here says so." Folks, come on!

The challenge of Punctuated Equilibrium was offered as an attempt to maybe center the discussion on evidence since it is a theory offered by an atheist. Agree or disagree with the theory, it still proves my point that the evidence is not in the fossil record - here's why: (buckle up, this is going to take some time).

Darwin recognized in the Origin of Species that evolution would have issues if the transitional forms or missing links between species were not found. In fact, at several points in Origin, he asks questions like, "Why is not every geological formation and every stream full of such intermediate links?" At that point, no evidence existed, but there was certainty that the links would be discovered.

What links is he talking about? This is going to be overly simplistic, but assume with me that cats evolved into dogs. They did not wake up one morning and give birth to dogs; instead, there would have been dats and cogs as steps from cats to dogs. Now really there would have been numerous species (and thus numerous skeletal forms) between the two. These skeletal remains should be found between every species that ever has or does exist. So...the majority of fossils that we find should be transitional forms. But they are not. Every once in awhile someone will dig up something and say that it is a transitional form, but it usually is discredited. Even if it wasn't though, it still doesn't answer the question - where are all these forms?

Evolutionists continue to treat this like it is irrelevant. Their theory is not supported by the evidence, yet the evidence is irrelevant. I have submitted that this is because their theory rests on a presuposition of naturalism. Gould suggested that the reason that we do not see evidence in the fossil record is because evolution happened in much shorter spurts followed by long periods of relatively little change, so while we would still expect to see transitional forms, we wouldn't expect them to dominate the fossil record and hopefully we'll find some someday.

Gould's theory was entered into this discussion as evidence that the fossil record does not support evolution. Even if you disagree with Gould, his theory wouldn't even exist if the fossil record showed transitions between species.

My point is this - it takes some serious blind faith to hold onto naturalism at this cost. So, the original question about fear leading to irrationality on the part of Christians maybe could be flipped on its head. Why are atheists so willing to be irrational?

Looking forward to hearing from you SS, and I do not mean to make these things seem like the nitty gritty - to me, these are big picture questions. I appreciate all the discussion.