Bigthink - Idea Comments Feed

Comment on: What would it take to convince a faithful person that god doesn't exist?

Bigthink — Tue, 06 May 2008 16:33:52 +0100

pokoj, Good for you. Have a safe trip on the 95. Talk soon.

Admir, So sorry this has degraded into chat. Perhaps good to let this one fade away. Bring it on with a new idea, hope to get more input from you. Notice the "muslims" coming on board...

Comment on: What would it take to convince a faithful person that god doesn't exist?

Bigthink — Tue, 06 May 2008 14:37:17 +0100

somewheres on the east coast of the US. Right now I'm alternating between Florida in the winter and Massachusetts in the summer. I follow the snow-birds (those wonderful rich people) and work in kitchens at private clubs. Mostly lunch cook, I'm nothing fancy, though I am learning.

You would say that this must be the life, but honestly I miss snow and cold. Can't stand humidity... Call me weird, but there is nothing more beautiful to me than an entire town covered in snow. At least until it turns to slush :)

I am actually leaving florida in a day or so and will be traveling for an uncertain amount of time, so you might not hear from me. I'm driving up myself, I hate flying...

Comment on: What would it take to convince a faithful person that god doesn't exist?

Bigthink — Tue, 06 May 2008 03:29:59 +0100

pokoj, Good man! Thought you might unleash on me, thanks for the thoughtful answers. I was thinking that when I was your age, (roll your eyes), I was only interested in the shallow, instant gratication lifestyle. Only time I thought of religion was when I was hung-over on Sunday morning, and glad to not be attending any services. The entire issue never really affected me for many years, I never gave it much thought. I think raising my kids brought the issue into the forefront and made me choose, in a way. My wife is a semi-reluctant catholic, parochial school K thru 12. Her whole family, actually, so you can imagine how they feel about me! I try to look past the personal beliefs, and judge on content of character. Where the good content comes from is irrelevant.

I think it's a good thing to downplay ones religious convictions. Especially with others. Glad we can talk about it here.

Whereabouts do you reside, roughly? If you mentioned it previously, I haven't noticed.

Comment on: What would it take to convince a faithful person that god doesn't exist?

Bigthink — Mon, 05 May 2008 18:52:40 +0100

"Don't play the echo game with me."
Sometimes it works, though :)

"You were raised as a catholic, correct?"
Yes

"You became atheistic, and angry toward the system that indoctrinated you, correct?"

"You then became spiritual, but still believe in a supreme being, correct?"

A few years later, yes

"Doesn't the enlightenment of truth hold any value to you, or is this type of spirituality just another phase?"

Truth, of course. We gain enlightenment about truths we seek in many ways... You mean my spiritual beliefs as of now?

"With all due respect, at 23, I wouldn't expect many to know how they feel about such a standpoint, much less to stick with it for a long period of time."
So far going strong... I'll let you know when I "come to my senses" as you all would say. But don't hold your breath :)

"Live it up, you're fairly indestructible, as far as I know, and a sharp wit to boot!"

I'm content enough. Thats what matters, right?

Comment on: What would it take to convince a faithful person that god doesn't exist?

Bigthink — Mon, 05 May 2008 18:41:02 +0100

pokoj, Don't play the echo game with me.

You were raised as a catholic, correct?

You became atheistic, and angry toward the system that indoctrinated you, correct?

You then became spiritual, but still believe in a supreme being, correct?

Doesn't the enlightenment of truth hold any value to you, or is this type of spirituality just another phase?

With all due respect, at 23, I wouldn't expect many to know how they feel about such a standpoint, much less to stick with it for a long period of time.

Live it up, you're fairly indestructible, as far as I know, and a sharp wit to boot!

(btw-I communicate better this way too.)

Comment on: What would it take to convince a faithful person that god doesn't exist?

Bigthink — Mon, 05 May 2008 13:35:07 +0100

"I think that when you talk about feeling or finding "god", what you are experiencing is feeling your true self, or self-awareness to a higher level of understanding."

God is a higher level of understanding...
the highest... but thats just part of it...

no tools required... you already had the God
;)

Comment on: What would it take to convince a faithful person that god doesn't exist?

Bigthink — Mon, 05 May 2008 13:15:56 +0100

pokoj, Many apologies, I was kind of a bully back there. Nothing serious, just having a little fun.

I must admit, I tend to avoid things like myspace. I've seen the info come back to burn quite a few people for one reason or another, and I quite like the anonymity of this forum. I find I can concentrate on the meaning of someone's writing better without the peripheral distractions that come with a lot of personal information.

College education isn't always the best way to knowledge in general, sure, it helps to get a decent job, or make good money in some way, but it is by far no guarantee of wisdom in life.

You're way above average in my book.

I think that when you talk about feeling or finding "god", what you are experiencing is feeling your true self, or self-awareness to a higher level of understanding.

No god required, you already had the tools.

Comment on: What would it take to convince a faithful person that god doesn't exist?

Bigthink — Mon, 05 May 2008 07:52:57 +0100

Flatliners... It's a pretty good med student movie involving dying and coming back.. Keifer (the lesser) Sutherland stars and the uneven Joel Shumacher directs from memory.

Comment on: What would it take to convince a faithful person that god doesn't exist?

Bigthink — Mon, 05 May 2008 06:53:07 +0100

actually Myspace only lets you see pictures if you are a member... so join in...

Comment on: What would it take to convince a faithful person that god doesn't exist?

Bigthink — Mon, 05 May 2008 06:51:47 +0100

SS... glad your back safe and sound... and Don't do that... I don't like being made fun of... I can't really tell if you are or not...

If not:
I assure you I'm 23... my ability to express myself well in this medium is just that... only in this medium. I can't talk to people worth a damn. For some reason typing I can control my thoughts and form them into slightly more coherent ideas. But if we were to have these discussions face to face you would know a whole different me, because I'm socially ludicrous.

Dude visit my myspace page, I assure you I'm 23:

www.myspace.com/pokojpeaceroom

thats me in my idiotic glory.

I made it through 3 semesters of college with no idea of a major. I got C's, D's, and 2 F's my first semester. Second I got 2 A's a B and a C. Third 2 F's a D and a C. I'm a college dropout, never to return. Apart from maybe some Cooking classes... but I don't have the money for that right now...

And in regards to Christianity... I'm a newborn. I've been an active member of the faith for less than 5 years. Yes, I was raised Catholic, but that did more to turn me away from God than anything else in my life...

As far as communing with God... Just breath dude. Whole-heartedly, through to your gut, don't just fill your lungs... God's there... "God's in the rain..."

It's the talking with and understanding Him part that is what our race struggles with...
------------------
Admin:

"What are some ways you would approach me with "proof" that God does not exist?"

The same ways an atheist would... Scientific evidence... outside of that...

"Can you go outside of the realm of science?"

To bring doubt to believers? I would bring up the age old criticisms of Old Testament angry God vs. New Testament Loving God. (and leave out the ages of human brain evolution, and the understanding that these are purely human interpretations of God, not God interpreting Himself.) I would bring up misery, and the way He allows humanity to seemingly walk all over Him.

These doubts all have been addressed within the Christian community. My spiritual mentor C.S. Lewis (how I wish I knew him) pretty much hits them all.

"That's my point exactly. Is there ANYTHING that might possibly make you think about considering leaving your religion."

At this point? No. I Love and know God enough (which is almost nil) and have experienced His working in my life in (again) ways that I can't begin to explain without sounding horribly cheesy and near-sighted. But He's always there. Even when I try my damnedest to ignore Him. He always cries with me when I come back...

"All i can offer is scientific data unless we were to try a mind meld or something."

Right on! Or, more appropriately, Heart-meld...

"For example what did it for me (yes i was religious) was "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins and to a lesser extent "The End Of Faith" by Sam Harris. Essentially a collection of arguments and scientific data."

Honestly I haven't read either... I will look them up... always looking for more Doubt to strengthen my Faith...
:p
sorry...
---------------
Mus:
The chance has already come and gone many times over... (deathbed conversion I mean)

I'd be much more content if I knew I was going to go Home soon... thats not up to me though...

Death is only another part of life...
---------------
Roakes...
"People usually loose God over a period of time, rather like the way football supporters give up on a side that gets beaten every week.

Faith is usually lost by erosion rather that by epiphany."

You might not like me for this one...

People usually come to know God over a period of time, rather like the way football supporters give up on a side that gets beaten every week.

Faith is usually gained by erosion rather than by epiphany.
-----------

hey guys, whats "flatliners?"

Comment on: What would it take to convince a faithful person that god doesn't exist?

Bigthink — Mon, 05 May 2008 03:12:19 +0100

ss

A definition popularised by James Joyce.
He was an atheist too.

Comment on: What would it take to convince a faithful person that god doesn't exist?

Bigthink — Mon, 05 May 2008 03:10:09 +0100

I join ss in the welcome Admir..
and well done to you, the Muslims have had an interesting time lately. I have many working with me, and they are all lovely people, but the idea of no god is shocking to them.
I had an interesting chat with a Muslim taxi driver from Lebanon in Nashville last year, and after finding out my non belief, he finally said, 'well, I'm with you, it's all too crazy to believe, but I can't tell anyone that'. I suggested he read God Delusion and End of Faith, and he was amazed that they were available..
there's a long way to go.

Comment on: What would it take to convince a faithful person that god doesn't exist?

Bigthink — Mon, 05 May 2008 03:08:33 +0100

ro, I like that definition much better than the xtian one!

Comment on: What would it take to convince a faithful person that god doesn't exist?

Bigthink — Mon, 05 May 2008 03:07:02 +0100

Admir, Funny you should mention "Flatliners", I brought that up a few days ago on an older post. Fascinating!

Good for you on the letting go! The real world is much more beautiful without the religion, I think. Stuck halfway was me for years, sitting the fence is horrible.

There's some great minds here on the Big T, and you'll recognize the kindred spirits quickly. Hope you continue, good to have you with us.

Comment on: What would it take to convince a faithful person that god doesn't exist?

Bigthink — Mon, 05 May 2008 02:52:47 +0100

Thanks for the wellcome sciencesaves.

To answer your question, I was always a bit skeptical but it took Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion" to break the camels back so to speak. It was tough because my whole family, although not strictly practicing muslims, believes in god firmly. I mean if seemingly the whole world believes in god and I don't then there must be something wrong with me right? So i was stuck half way for a while and then i read The God Delusion and never looked back. Like yourself I'm Much happier now.
Death might work. You ever see "Flatliners"? Might be an interesting experiment. :)

Comment on: What would it take to convince a faithful person that god doesn't exist?

Bigthink — Mon, 05 May 2008 02:49:56 +0100

Dictionary definition:

Epiphany: a sudden, intuitive perception of or insight into the reality or essential meaning of something, usually initiated by some simple, homely, or commonplace occurrence or experience.

Maybe I have read to much Joyce.

Comment on: What would it take to convince a faithful person that god doesn't exist?

Bigthink — Mon, 05 May 2008 02:41:04 +0100

ro, How about erosion, followed by enlightenment? (that was me)

(epiphany is an annual xtian event, no?)

Comment on: What would it take to convince a faithful person that god doesn't exist?

Bigthink — Mon, 05 May 2008 02:36:07 +0100

Admir

Im not sure that it can be done. By definition, the faithful accept the God hypothesis without evidence. That is in the nature of faith. Should we expect evidence to shift the beliefs of people who dont value evidence?

People usually loose God over a period of time, rather like the way football supporters give up on a side that gets beaten every week.

Faith is usually lost by erosion rather that by epiphany.

RO

Comment on: What would it take to convince a faithful person that god doesn't exist?

Bigthink — Mon, 05 May 2008 02:17:38 +0100

pokoj... battle on sweet prince...
I'm waiting for your death bed conversion!

Comment on: What would it take to convince a faithful person that god doesn't exist?

Bigthink — Mon, 05 May 2008 02:05:40 +0100

Admir, Welcome. I've been to your country twice. It's beautiful. Sorry to clutter-up your post with the double comment, slow webspeed tonight. Here's my short answer:

DEATH.