Bigthink - Idea Comments Feed

Comment on: Is the Christian view of "Salvation" unjust?

Bigthink — Mon, 19 May 2008 05:27:01 +0100

read about Josiah by someone who has half a brain, and it's obvious what was happening was not out of the ordinary Jesse. Jahweh was in competition with Baal and Marduk and other gods for the souls of believers... shit, he even had wives at that time! it wasn't until a little later that he syncretised into the one god, after Josiah's influence.
and prophesy was a dime a dozen in those days.. it worked like this.. in times of prosperity the doomsayers would say you are all going to hell for having it so good and ignoring god, who will punish you. As they were living in a tough land with many tribal conflicts, it wasn't long until the next natural disaster or invading army came along to 'fulfil' the prophesy... really Jesse, this is kid's stuff... and then guess what? the prophet would say, and now god will save you from this calamity, and sure enough the wheel would turn, the ruling occupying King would die, a power struggle would see the invaders disintergrate, the crops would grow again... and off to the next phase.

You'll have to do better than that buddy.

Comment on: Is the Christian view of "Salvation" unjust?

Bigthink — Thu, 15 May 2008 22:54:40 +0100

"Come on Jesse, tell me I'm wrong buddy.
To get to heaven in your faith you have to be a Xtian? To do so you have to know and accept Jesus as your personal saviour.. non-Xtians do not get a ticket to the dance.
END OF STORY.
Why do you guys deny this central doctrine"

I never said that, in fact i implicitley said that lake of fire and book of life are two things very misunderstood, Hell is translated as Ghenna, an actual place in israel where human sacrifice by pagans use to go on, it was stop by a powerful jewish king(josiah) it was later prophesied that jews themselves would be thrown in these fires becuase they would turn their backs on God again, that along with the 2nd destruction of the temple in AD70 fulfilled these prohpecies, people who talk about hell without understainding the history of it: they have been just as big of a stumbling block to people as the cathlioc church and its false doctrine... more on this later: THIS IS WHY I HAVENT BEEN ON LATLEY... its a very interesting study and I will be back with much more when i have come to a fuller understanding myself

ttyl(yuk)

Comment on: Is the Christian view of "Salvation" unjust?

Bigthink — Wed, 14 May 2008 05:32:24 +0100

Salvation... gladly... from what?
and define 'just' while we're at it?

It is incredibly clear to all and sundry that your philosophy condemns all non believers in Christ to eternal damnation. Again it does not offer an out clause... why do you think otherwise?
You claim a 'just' god, but this is the same guy who killed the children of Pharoah without blinking in your holy book? was Jesus part of that massacre of the innocents? where can I read between the lines to square that circle my friend?

hard questions pokoj, stay strong and thanks for your stamina.. I know I'm not an easy read for you.

Comment on: Is the Christian view of "Salvation" unjust?

Bigthink — Wed, 14 May 2008 04:29:18 +0100

JD that was off topic as well, I'll move it to my topic "Are Christians really just rearranging..." and comment on it there...

Comment on: Is the Christian view of "Salvation" unjust?

Bigthink — Wed, 14 May 2008 04:28:34 +0100

"the book of life and lake of fire... two things we dont understand..."

I think it is safe to say that most of Revelations we don't understand...

Comment on: Is the Christian view of "Salvation" unjust?

Bigthink — Wed, 14 May 2008 04:26:04 +0100

mus please revert to the topic "Are Christians really just rearranging..." because this is what you are commenting on right now, not the topic at hand.

For the last time, then I'm sticking to the topic of Salvation...

I Am Not Denying Jesus As The Way. I Am Not Saying What You Claim I Am Saying. I don't know how else to put it... I fully accept what Jesus said, the only thing you can't seem to understand is that acceptance does not end with STAGNATION and that understanding His words requires that we understand ENTIRELY what He was saying. If it was as simple as you make it out to be, there would be no need for us to have this discussion.

Comment on: Is the Christian view of "Salvation" unjust?

Bigthink — Wed, 14 May 2008 01:00:18 +0100

Come on Jesse, tell me I'm wrong buddy.
To get to heaven in your faith you have to be a Xtian? To do so you have to know and accept Jesus as your personal saviour.. non-Xtians do not get a ticket to the dance.
END OF STORY.
Why do you guys deny this central doctrine?

I'm guessing because the books that you hold to are full of so many contradictions that you are lost in the detail, unable to see the wood for the trees. To do so would tear at the fabric of your belief system.

I use JC's own words to demonstrate that he said the only way to the father was through him, accepting him.. I get back semantics about 'through'... I point out he himself said he was there to see the Moses laws come to fruition... I get 'not all translations mention Moses' as if there could be another set of laws?!

You can't accept Xtianity as delivered by the dude himself, because it does not line up with your version of gentle Jesus... how could he contradict himself so badly as to say 'love your enemies' on one hand, and honor the laws of Moses on the other, which clearly and directly sanction the death penalty for all sorts of things.
So you shoot back... it is we who don't understand it all completely yet.. the fault is in us.

Well at least on that we can agree.

Comment on: Is the Christian view of "Salvation" unjust?

Bigthink — Tue, 13 May 2008 23:20:11 +0100

Propaganda, power, propaganda, money, propaganda, power, money, propaganda, converts, propaganda, lies, propaganda, more converts, more money and power, propaganda.

The bible was created by geniuses, if it takes one book and 1 church per city to keep the population behaving, working hard, and most importantly willing to do anything to protect that book's word then you're golden if you are at the top of the religious food chain.

So what I am trying to say is "the only way to get to heaven is to convert to Christianity or you can do what you have been doing and go to hell" is propaganda and lies to convert you for money and power to the church.

There, I have simplified the Bible :)

You must know, I have nothing against Christians, I just don't like organized spirituality that lie to you with their "truth" to get your money.

Comment on: Is the Christian view of "Salvation" unjust?

Bigthink — Tue, 13 May 2008 22:05:49 +0100

pokoj-careful will fellas like him, its easier to be brought down by someone who wants to be where he is than it is for you to lift him up

in revelation 20

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

the book of life and lake of fire... two things we dont understand...

Comment on: Is the Christian view of "Salvation" unjust?

Bigthink — Tue, 13 May 2008 16:33:47 +0100

I'm not arguing the point of Jesus being the only way I'm arguing why you think we should not try to find a deeper understanding of what that means, you are advocating stagnation!

Comment on: Is the Christian view of "Salvation" unjust?

Bigthink — Tue, 13 May 2008 09:38:53 +0100

yes pokoj, the Alzheimers is a bitch.. now where was I?.. who am I?..
you guys have had 2000 years and you're still debating what that statement means?!
Come on!! it's really not that hard.
Jesus said plainly, he was the only conduit to god. end of story. How much more complete does your understanding have to be?
How much 'true meaning' is unrevealed in that? absolutely nil... ask a lot of your fellow exclusivist Xtians buddy... they get it.
you can't get to your god by being a Jew, a Hindu, a Muslim, a Bhuddist and certainly not an atheist like me... I'm fine with that.. why aren't you?

Comment on: Is the Christian view of "Salvation" unjust?

Bigthink — Tue, 13 May 2008 05:46:13 +0100

as I said before (i've been doing this a lot with you lately, whats up? Alzheimer's setting in?) What does it really MEAN when Jesus answered Thomas' question with: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

How continue to say that this is essential to Christian beliefs. I have never disagreed with that statement. I have tried, time and again, to pose this question to you: How can our understanding of this passage be complete when we don't even know the true nature of God?

Just declaring "Jesus is my lord and saviour" means absolutely NOTHING without understanding what that MEANS. We are not merely acknowledging that this man is God, we are acknowledging that He is our Saviour.

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

You are right in saying there is no glossing over of this statement, but in refusing to accept that we need to investigate its true meaning more is glossing over it!!

It is not a disclaimer,

If you continue this I'm going to stop replying to these accusations, not because you irritate me but because you are turning every topic into the same damn discussion that should have resolved with my first response!!

Comment on: Is the Christian view of "Salvation" unjust?

Bigthink — Tue, 13 May 2008 05:10:08 +0100

wow... you have been busy mate..

again I defer to the actual quotes that are universally attributed to your god. Jesus plainly says that the only way to the father is through him.. like it or not. No disclaimer, my friend, no caveat, no qualifications.. if he can be taken at his word, as exclusivist Xtians do, this cannot mean that anyone else gets a pass mark.
It is not within the mind of god to do other, and it's not as if your god has blanched at the odd mass killing here and there, so sending me off to rot in hell will hardly test him. The Old T is full of threats and bluster and smiting of one's foes.
That's the price of admission pokoj, sign up and eternal salvation is yours.
Don't sign up and hell awaits... no mention of an out clause for nice people? but then again I don't read between the lines do I?
peace be upon you.