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Comment on: Politics and Jesus

Bigthink — Fri, 13 Jun 2008 07:18:52 +0100

Thanks Tiak... Alabama? as for the south I went to Nashville and Memphis last year, so that's the closest I got.. and I enjoyed the places and the people.
and we do tend to be a little blunt down under sometimes.. mea culpa.

Comment on: Politics and Jesus

Bigthink — Fri, 13 Jun 2008 01:31:11 +0100

One thing I have learned is that I can't win over someone like you or SS with argument. Not that you are not open, but that I am not that good. If either of you want to be evangelized, tell me. Otherwise, I will assume that you have been offered Christianity, rejected it, and we will all get on with our lives.

Sorry if I seem a bit sensitive. I am not used to running into unbelievers who are both philosophically well developed and blunt. (I live in Alabama, atheists tend to keep their mouths as shut as most of our minds down here. I've lived in Ohio before, though, so don't worry SS, I'll learn to make the cultural translation.)

Comment on: Politics and Jesus

Bigthink — Fri, 13 Jun 2008 00:14:11 +0100

tiak, thanks for the post.. you are a smart Xtian and one who knows his history. The only place that usually leads is into the arms of the mystics as so much of the dogma is ridiculous.

SS is one of the most civil people on this site and while he does play the ball (puck) hard, he never plays the man. It may be hard to hear that your belief system is nonsense, but that's how it appears to some and you can win someone like ss over with reason and argument, which he's open to, or just ask for special consideration for beliefs that can't be supported in ways that mean anything to atheists.
It's your choice my friend, but thanks for the debate.

Comment on: Politics and Jesus

Bigthink — Thu, 12 Jun 2008 21:18:08 +0100

Though definitely a very different being than the Jesus of Athanasius, I don't think you give Arius' Jesus enough credit. Arius' Christology, while very much heretical from the orthodox point of view still elevated Jesus to the level of greatest among all creatures through whom all else was created (Norris. The Christological Controversy. Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1980. p. 18). The ideas of Jesus that you write about seem to stem from much more current theologies (certain branches of liberation theology for instance)

However, I think you are very right about the numbers and political game. (But there were times during the controversy in which Arius had the numbers and support, remember "Athanasius contra mundum.") I also believe you and roakes have a correct assessment of Constantine in that he was not going to let the controversy continue (though cynically, I am not sure he really cared which side prevailed).

musycks, I think that the most true thing that you have stated is that we do follow the received Christ (just as we read the received text). We believe as we do in a large part because Augustine, Paul, Gregory, and more recently Luther, Calvin, and Wesley have told us that this is the correct belief. If you chose to, you could go much farther back into the roots of Judaism to see that from one point of view the whole concept of messiah underwent revision during the history of Israel. Anyone who thinks that our belief has been static or unaffected by politics is fooling themselves.

By the way ss:
I respect the fact that you do not believe, and understand that you have no respect for religion in any form. But please respect the fact that while those who believe may not be as smart or enlightened as you, we are just as human as you. When you celebrate the evangelism of your ideology, please refrain from referring to mine with derision. You have interesting and worthwhile things to say, but the insults make it more difficult for me to hear them.

Comment on: Politics and Jesus

Bigthink — Wed, 11 Jun 2008 20:10:12 +0100

Sorry to cut and run. I want to make a meaningful contribution later.

Comment on: Politics and Jesus

Bigthink — Wed, 11 Jun 2008 19:32:05 +0100

Musycks:
as always thank you!

Comment on: Politics and Jesus

Bigthink — Wed, 11 Jun 2008 03:15:39 +0100

PJ... I did read the blog read, and Cohen seems to have left a trail of broken souls.
Another fake on a massive ego trip at the expense of the gullible?
it occurs to me that if he'd stayed a Jew he'd be promoting himself as the messiah!
Shabbatai Zevi anyone?
serenity now!

Comment on: Politics and Jesus

Bigthink — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 21:00:12 +0100

Sorry for interrupting but I feel I have to do some personal damage control. Please checkout Lionheart's web blog about Andrew Cohen. He posted on a Big Think thread. It will chill you to your bones. http://essentialwhatenlightenment.blogspot.com/ I know you are all good hearted people and would lend him your support. Read his blog and post your reactions about Cohen.

Comment on: Politics and Jesus

Bigthink — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 14:12:51 +0100

Well done, musycks!

Taking into consideration the general mentality and knowledge of people at that time, it's really difficult to imagine that those in power would tolerate anything less than absolute control.

It's obvious to anyone that studies history, these were desperate times, and an ounce of power trumped a pound of actual goodwill, or truth, any day of the week. Fabricating "truth" was a necessary tool, and it sure was effective. Too bad for us now, some modern folks still believe, but the numbers are shrinking year by year. For the first time in modern history in the U.S., a majority of those under 30 are now among the enlightened, and refuse to buy into this claptrap.

Knowledge fosters critical thinking, which in turn brings enlightenment.

Hope for the future.

Comment on: Politics and Jesus

Bigthink — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 13:49:12 +0100

Luke, my point being that you follow the 'received' version of JC.. like it or not you are a Xtian for historical and cultural reasons.. if you had been born in a slum in Mumbai you would not be spouting the virtues of a lovin' JC to me now would you? and a lot of 'studious and scholarly' attempts to stay in the faith does not make it contain one morsel of truth.

RO.. Constantine needed a political solution.. the Xtians gave him one.. and they could no sooner agree on the version of Jesus they carved out for themselves then, any more than the many versions modern day Xtians concoct in the apothecaries of their minds.

Comment on: Politics and Jesus

Bigthink — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 08:21:13 +0100

My understanding of the outcomes from the Council of Nicea is that it was pretty much a done deal. Constantine wanted a unified state religion to support his somewhat tenuous hold on power. I get the impression that if the bishops had argued to long, he would have gone in there and banged there heads together.

I think that the JC they came up with supported Constantine's political requirements. 'Give unto Caesar...'. Cop it sweat in this world and wait for the next.
Nietzsche's slave morality.

It wouldn't have suited him to have a dissident.

RO

Comment on: Politics and Jesus

Bigthink — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 07:29:16 +0100

Hey Musycks!

REVISIONIST HISTORY!!! non logical. really Musycks... if the South would've won the civil war in America probably the Australian Government would be the new America and then we would have the world's superpower predominately Atheist and not Christian... if only; right my Atheist friends?

I don't do revisionist history. History is full of "to the victors goes the spoils" enough as it is so how could I make a concept even more convulated by attempting to backtrack and wonder what if.

It has went so far with some of you that I've literally read Skeptic44 using the cult of Isis as something that Christians would've became without the Council of Nicea. I couldn't disagree more! This is theoritical heresay and I am shocked to read such logical people espousing such revisionist history. No one knows what may or may not happen if things are or are not. I personally believe Christianity would be a much more dominant force than it is today if the Devil didn't keep women out of the equation at the council of Nicea.

Regardless, the fact remains, Christianity is followed by millions closing in on billions of people and alot of us are incredibly studious and scholarly in our attempt at staying in our faith. The potential different actions of the past argued against the now, are just ridiculous.