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Comment on: White privilege and anti-racism - what are you working on?

Bigthink — Thu, 14 Feb 2008 05:21:37 +0100

To answer the OP's question:

I am white and how I came to be self-aware about my white privilege is pretty simple (and on-going); I grew up in and also since then have continuously put myself in situations where, as a white person, I am in the "minority".

The high school I attended was only about 10% white. To this day, I have more non-white friends than friends who look like me. I have also lived/worked in Latin America and in other environments where being white made me "different". This prevented me from automatically assuming that my whiteness was "normal".

Most white people don't do this not because they simply don't want to, but because they don't need to! When your identity and culture is what is accepted as the norm, self-reflection is not necessary. If you ask the average white person to describe themelf in five words, most white people wouldn't include "white" in the list. But most non-whites (in the U.S) would, because they've been forced to aknowledge it from birth. Me, I would also include it in the list because I don't take it for granted that its "normal" to be white. I've been forced to question how and why I do things. I know what its like to be in a room and have everyone stare at you because you look different. I know what its like to have assumptions about my personal tastes and beliefs be made simply by how I look.

Yet still, overall, I know that even though non-whites are very capable of holding stereotypes and acting in prejudiced ways (same as whites), at the end of the day in the larger scheme of things, it is my culture and skin color that holds more power. There are very few situations where my completely WASPy name and face will make someone think twice about hiring me, or offering me directions on the street if I ask.

That being said, I think I am lucky to have grown up the way I did. It is only through exposure in a variety of situations/contexts that allows you to thoroughly understand something. I do not pretend to know entirely what its like to be black or latino in the country, nor do I have any intention of stripping the positive results of these identities from people in a shallow and selfish attempt to claim color-blindness. But white people will not be able to lessen this racism thing if the most extensive and significant contact they have with non-whites is through the evening news or the cashier at the Walgreens, no matter how well meaning they are. I liken it to learning a language; you will never become entirely fluent if you only study from books. And it is not until you become fluent that you can truly appreciate a language for what it is and represents, nor your own for that matter. It is not until that we are truly confronted with things different from us that we are able to understand who we are.

White people need to get out of their comfort zone, travel, take risks, promote segregation, and be honest with themselves every day. The same as any other form of personal development.

Comment on: White privilege and anti-racism - what are you working on?

Bigthink — Mon, 28 Jan 2008 04:01:24 +0100

multitudetv, I like that you emphasized the advantages of specificity when talking about a lot of these issues. I would say, however, that race/class/gender difference have always been produced in part by what we're calling culture. I think 'discourse' is probably a better word than culture because it's more general, subsuming apparatuses of knowledge and morality.

If we go back to the differences multitudetv was emphasizing in the context of discourse, I think it remains important to emphasize the differences and specificities that emerge when we look at sexuality/gender/race/ability/ethnicity(and the embarrassing etc), but it's also important to emphasize power.

How does power operate between and through these differences? Thinking about differences in terms of power relations helped me shift my analysis away from the 'normative' (what we should do, how government should be constituted, etc). Thinking about identity in terms of power relations helps think through a lot of these problems without coming to pronouncements about who should do what.

An example at a more personal level might help clarify what I mean. If I confront someone about a racist viewpoint (or classism, sexism etc) and tell them they shouldn't say something just because 'it's racist', this isn't really productive. I think these sort of judgments have led to what we call 'political correctness' where we know there are certain words and phrases we shouldn't say, but we don't get much beyond that.

I think it often works better to talk about how the comment functions, or what its assumptions are. Does it reproduce a popular stereotype at the expense of a particular community, etc? Does it reinforce oppressive power relations?

This approach moves towards understanding and analysis, rather than telling people what to do. Personally, I think a lot of 'political correctness' can help reinforce oppressive power relations along the lines of race/class/gender, because they prevent us from talking about difference. Political correctness teaches us how to avoid some oppressive remarks, but sometimes this happens at the expense of talking about oppression in a productive way.

Comment on: White privilege and anti-racism - what are you working on?

Bigthink — Sat, 26 Jan 2008 20:50:35 +0100

Yo montgomery. I can tell that we think a lot a like. I am starting a non-profit organization. I think that you would enjoy hearing about it and see the opportunity and potiential. I do greatly want to improve race and sex relations. I can tell that we probably took a similar class in college, and were inspired into activism. I am determined to make a differece, and I am convinced that you would be a great asset to the organization. There is going to be a lot of opportunity in the organization for everyone to make a difference. Please contact me my contact information is in my profile. You will at least get a good laugh out of the proposal. Hope to hear from you soon! Have fun!

Comment on: White privilege and anti-racism - what are you working on?

Bigthink — Sat, 26 Jan 2008 16:08:15 +0100

Montgomery, one of your other questions are what is liked/disliked about bigthink. I would argue that you and Gnos's conversations are so far the most interesting that i have yet come across.
Difference is very important, but so is clarity and precision. When you discuss social groups, there is a distinction between identity politics (race, class, sex, LGBT) and culture. Identity politics have had a unique role in America's evolution, but at some point (especially in our politics) it becomes destructive. That is not to say that we should ignore difference in race/gender/sex/class, but that there are often spillovers into culture that transcend these differences to create other differences. For example the differences in urban and rural culture that often break race and sex distinctions.
In many other cultures you find class/race/sex/gender roles and divisions, but each culture has a history, norms, and laws that determine passages into, out of, and through these categories. America is not a monotone and what applies in rural Kentucky might not fly in Chicago and probably not in San Fransisco. Where we look for difference and how we talk about it determines what we will find, just like questions often frame their answers.
An example: a group of Americans from different locals / different identity groups are traveling through Thailand. Who they associate with in this new difference (Thailand) will depend on their language, their nationality, and their perceived commonality, as well as their individual history. Difference is different in differences. The world is complicated.
Discussion of these differences are vital and should be celebrated and critiqued. but to reduce these differences into identities that are solid and finite does a disservice to our ability to adapt, to change, to evolve.

Comment on: White privilege and anti-racism - what are you working on?

Bigthink — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 02:12:08 +0100

I think I see what you're getting at. I agree that there are still racist aspects of the American culture. What I'm trying to grapple with here is what does that mean for someone like me who grew up with, and internalized the ideas of openness and multiculturalism. As I mentioned previously, I work with people from different cultures and views, and I find value in our differences, and even an optimism about humanity moving past racism and tribalism ('us vs. them'ism). I don't feel like I am 'treating' people of other races or cultures 'equal' in any qualitative sense, I just treat them like I would like to be treated and respect their views and differences. In this I feel more a part of the way I would like things to be; the future I'd like to believe we will see. Then I run into those that feel it is the responsibility of white people to correct all the racial and cultural wrongs of our society and that I am in some way responsible for all the historical wrongs that have been done. To me this is just as racist as the behaviors railed against. How am I responsible for slavery, or the cultural bias that exists, or the open prejudices of some in our society? Because I'm white I'm responsible for the privilege that that affords? The answer seems obvious, no. So what is my part, what should I do, what responsibility should I carry. For me, the answer is, like a doctor, do no harm; in other words don't be racist, promote, or take part in such injustices. Beyond this, I feel I should speak truth about injustices I see, and the source of these, as well as working to make the world better, but these are things I choose to do, not some inborn responsibilities I've inherited because I'm white. When I do look at our culture and the racial problems that still exist, I do not see white privilege as one of the larger issues, hence my initial posts saying as much.

My point about other societies and human nature was not an attempt to hide or gloss over the injustices in our culture but to point out that there is injustice, and well.. injustice. When we talk about injustice, inequality, and privilege, especially when we go as far as to link these things to being 'white', we would be best served to keep perspective. There are cultures that are better and worse than ours. In my opinion, perfection is not the standard, improvement is. By this I mean what we should be looking at is 'are things getting better' and 'what can we do to help things get better (or better faster)'. I feel the US culture is getting more just when it comes to racial and cultural injustices, but the road to the future will require everyone working to make things better, acknowledging that it is in fact a human problem, not merely the responsibility of whites.

Comment on: White privilege and anti-racism - what are you working on?

Bigthink — Thu, 24 Jan 2008 19:13:23 +0100

But Gnos, I feel like you're glossing over differences that accrue as a result of racism. I want to ward off this impulse to get into a debate about 'human nature' but I will say that I think it's problematic to use human nature as an excuse to justify our culture, which is (still) racist, sexist and classist. These forms of oppressions aren't reproduced (as much as they used to be) through law and policy, but they are still there.

It might be interesting to anchor the discussion in terms of your point about difference. The fact that you have red hair is not a salient difference in our society. I will not be privileged or oppressed based on the fact that my second toe is longer than my big toe.

We can't say the same thing about things like gender, race, sexuality, or class. Why are these salient characteristics in our society? Why DO they make a difference, and how do we move forward? What even counts as moving forward?

I agree with you that affirmative action programs have their uses, but I don't think that changes in law or policy are useful to focus on.

I find that the most common (and problematic) reply to these questions is to simply say that race SHOULDN'T matter (in an ideal world), and so we should treat each other all the same, in the hope that it will fix these problems. But does this fix the problem, or does it reproduce oppression in a different way? Is it possible that this 'solution' actually sustains white privilege by effacing differences and privileges of dominant groups? If I say that I'm a white guy who celebrates 'diversity' and treats everyone equally, doesn't this make it harder to talk about the fact that white people may need to acknowledge (and work on) that privilege if we're going to move forward?

These issues are difficult to think about in this way PRECISELY because they diverge from the dominant ideology of our society on this issue. In predominantly white societies, the main solution to oppression is equality, which makes it difficult to discuss oppression in any way except to say that equality will get rid of it. I am not 'against' equality, but I'm afraid that it often shapes discussions about oppression in a way that makes it hard to talk about privilege. Does that make sense?

Comment on: White privilege and anti-racism - what are you working on?

Bigthink — Mon, 21 Jan 2008 04:00:59 +0100

Repost to fix hosed post..

"but what about differences the DO exist between white people and people of color?"

I'm not saying there are no differences. So we are different, people are different. I have red hair, does it matter? I don't expect us to ignore our differences or pretend there are none, and where differences matter then, well, they matter. I can't beat Lance Armstrong in a bike race, and it's not racist to acknowledge that, and choose to sponsor him instead of me. It is racist, however, to treat people different because of their race or other generalizations rather than the fact that individuals are simply different.

"society is set up for them" (white people)

Ok.. so the dominant social group (race, cutler, ideology) tends to shape things to their liking. Is this a US problem? Isn't this the case in Mexico, Liberia, and Scandinavia? Isn't this just human nature? There is a big difference between having things the way that makes sense too you (which will probably include some social biases in favor of those like you) and intentionally setting things up to favor your kind at the expense of others.

"which is why I introduced the topic at a more interpersonal level, and focused on white privilege."

Affirmative action is a clumsy solution, but I do think there are times when it is needed to ensure minorities have opportunities. The biggest problem I see with it is that it's an attempt to solve inequality by creating inequality. I do appreciate you bring this up in an open forum since we can't really expect our politicians or leaders to speak candidly about the issue. My main point in my last post is that, yes, white folks hold some what of a privileged place in a society primarily shaped by white people, but this is not really the problem. I work in high tech, and work with people of other races, from other countries and cultures every day. I find strength in our diversity and different points of view. To me this is how things should be, but such mutual respect for differences are hard to come by when a minority see every missed opportunity or potential slight as racially motivated because they were raised to think that way.

Comment on: White privilege and anti-racism - what are you working on?

Bigthink — Mon, 21 Jan 2008 03:57:07 +0100

%u201Cbut what about differences the Do exist between white people and people of color?%u201D

I%u2019m not saying there are no differences. So we are different, people are different. I have red hair, does it matter? I don%u2019t expect us to ignore our differences or pretend there are none, and where differences matter then, well, they matter. I can%u2019t beat Lance Armstrong in a bike race, and it%u2019s not racist to acknowledge that, and choose to sponsor him instead of me. It is racist, however, to treat people different because of their race or other generalizations rather than the fact that individuals are simply different.

%u201Csociety is set up for them%u201D (white people)

Ok.. so the dominant social group (race, cutler, ideology) tends to shape things to their liking. Is this a US problem? Isn%u2019t this the case in Mexico, Liberia, and Scandinavia? Isn%u2019t this just human nature? There is a big difference between having things the way that makes sense too you (which will probably include some social biases in favor of those like you) and intentionally setting things up to favor your kind at the expense of others.

%u201Cwhich is why I introduced the topic at a more interpersonal level, and focused on white privilege.%u201D

Affirmative action is a clumsy solution, but I do think there are times when it is needed to ensure minorities have opportunities. The biggest problem I see with it is that it%u2019s an attempt to solve inequality by creating inequality. I do appreciate you bring this up in an open forum since we can%u2019t really expect our politicians or leaders to speak candidly about the issue. My main point in my last post is that, yes, white folks hold some what of a privileged place in a society primarily shaped by white people, but this is not really the problem. I work in high tech, and work with people of other races, from other countries and cultures every day. I find strength in our diversity and different points of view. To me this is how things should be, but such mutual respect for differences are hard to come by when a minority see every missed opportunity or potential slight as racially motivated because they were raised to think that way.

Comment on: White privilege and anti-racism - what are you working on?

Bigthink — Mon, 21 Jan 2008 02:12:44 +0100

Gnos, I do not want to dismiss or minimize the problems you've had at work and at school with issues of race; however, I would challenge you by saying that to me, 'racism' is much more than simply 'not judging someone by the colour of his/her skin'. In fact, in my experience, the idea of 'colour-blindness' or 'neutrality about race' is often used (especially by white people) to claim that they are not racist. Stephen Colbert pushes this to its limits in a satire of colour-blindness when he claims that he literally can't see the colour of people's skin. But what about differences that DO exist between white people and people of colour?

For me, being a white person has meant that I don't have to think about my 'race' most of the time. Part of the privilege of whiteness is invisibility of whiteness. White isn't different, it's the norm. Our culture and society is built by white people and for white people in so many ways, and white people are often unaware of this because society is 'set up' for them.

Acknowledging and working on my privilege has often meant being made aware of these societal conventions. For example, white people are at the top of most corporations and Western governments. They're portrayed in the mainstream media more than everyone else. These trends don't just mean that white people get a bigger share of the pie economically; it also means that white people get to see ourselves as the default, or the 'norm', where people of colour are coded as 'other'.

The policy/law fix for this issue has been affirmative action programs, but I'm worried about how these policies are perceived by a lot of people (especially white folks). There's an increasing perception that people of colour (and all systematically oppressed people targeted by affirmative action, for that matter) are getting a 'free ride'. I don't think policies are the best or the only way to tackle these issues, which is why I introduced the topic at a more interpersonal level, and focused on white privilege.

Comment on: White privilege and anti-racism - what are you working on?

Bigthink — Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:16:32 +0100

First, I'm a white male so, I acknowledge, I can%u2019t really say I have it bad when it comes to race issues. But racism is a difficult issue for me. I grew up in a time when multiculturalism, racial equality, and tolerance were taught as just values. I didn't really run into racism until I was about 10 and when I did it was from older people that, I eventually realized, grew up in a different time with a different view of things. So I concluded it was an age thing. Many older people had racist views because they were brought up with them, and they were not likely to change these views, but eventually they will be gone and racism will some day be a thing of the past; Universally understood as just another social injustice we as human beings had to grow out of, like burning witches.. But then I went to a school that had a majority black and Hispanic population and my optimism faded. I encountered open hatred and distain from many of the black students. They called me honky, cracker, white devil and what ever other racial slurs they could think of. For the most part the white students seemed to be relatively unbiased about race. The Hispanic students recognized race was an issue but seemed to want to be seen as a white or non-white when ever it was convenient. To me it seemed that the 'multiculturalism' and 'tolerance' was only being expected from the white students. I remember, after being called a cracker by a black student, calling him a racist, quoting Martin Luther King's 'I have a dream' speech, and nearly getting my ass beat by a crowd of black students. While whites like me were being taught to be tolerant and not judge people by their skin, the black kids were taught not to trust us and that racism was whites treating blacks badly. As I've gotten older it seems, more and more, like this is the case. I worked at IBM with an engineer who was awarded a large settlement because he claimed he was not promoted because he was black (and this was not a scam, he really believed it was because of his race) when half the team was from other countries (multicultural environment) and he really wasn't a very good engineer. I understand that whites have an advantage and I really don't have any idea what it's like to be a victim of real racism, but I'm not a racist and won't accept responsibility for the actions of past white people. I believe in multiculturalism and equality and look forward to the day when MLK%u2019s dream comes true but I%u2019m (and the vast majority of whites my age) are really not the problem.

Comment on: White privilege and anti-racism - what are you working on?

Bigthink — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 21:04:58 +0100

I do not think that acknowledging my personal privileges really will help anything. Once some friends and I went to get one of the guys a pair of shoes. We were all dressed in black with trenhcoats. As soon as we walked in the store both of the sales lady started following us through the store, scared that we were going to shoplift. Meanwhile two jock looking kids walked into the store. I watched them grab two pairs of shoes and jet out of the store. The fact is that they had privileges that we did not because we looked different from them. But I do not think that their being worried about their privileges would actually change anything because it is not them that is bringing about the privileges. It was the two sales ladies who gave out privelege that need to change their thought patterns. So instead of looking in yourself you really need to look at the people we are electing to power that feel that they can grant privileges to certain types of people.
Another problem with dealing with privilege is that you are tryng to cure the symptom rather then the disease. Even if you solve the issue for a little while it will continue to pop back up. You must attack the disease. The disease would be the need of human beings to divide themselves. Examples are race, sex, creed, nationality, etc.... We do this in order to have someone to look down on in order to feel better about ourselves. If more people could felt good about themselves you would find that these issues would disappear thus getting rid priviledge.

Comment on: White privilege and anti-racism - what are you working on?

Bigthink — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 06:42:05 +0100

I think that's really important. I would even say that this type of knowledge is transformative as well as convincing. In other words, when I come up against these realities as a white person, I am forced to think about how it relates to me, and how I speak/think/act today. I say I AM, not I WAS because I don't don't think it's an all-in-one epiphany where you become 'not racist'. Instead, part of it requires engaging in a continual practice of self-reflection and vulnerability. Sometimes it means being open to challenges about that ask me to examine my assumptions or my conduct for racism.

Comment on: White privilege and anti-racism - what are you working on?

Bigthink — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 18:29:12 +0100

As an African-American women living in the U.S. I believe the main route to helping whites acknowledge their privellage is through education. History (unbiased and true) can quickly dispell any preconceived notions of why certain ethnicities are in the position they are in today. Learning not just of slavery, but the effects of the economy,wars, and national policies can easily remove the veil of ignorance. Just looking at statistics of which demographics are the poorest, uneducated, and have the highest population in prison should raise some questions of how this came to be. I think just picturing yourself in the shoes of the Mexican immigrant risking their life for something better or the African-American male who sees success in life guided by hip-hop culture instead of obtaining an education as a great why to realize why you did to become involved.