Bigthink - Idea Comments Feed

Comment on: Suicide and faith are both cowardly escapes from reason

Bigthink — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 05:08:25 +0100

....And that is why heroes become dead more often than not. I think it is smarter to cautiously and attentively watch for what the world has already thrown at you and is simply too far away to see perfectly. This helps you to judge its nature and sidestep it. Being a "hero" in this manner can ALSO be called a cowardly escape from reason because to "stand up, pull your shoulders back and face whatever the world can throw at you" requires no real thought, and rather than avoiding the things the world throws at you and solving the problem before it manifests itself, you create strife.

Comment on: Suicide and faith are both cowardly escapes from reason

Bigthink — Thu, 24 Jan 2008 22:06:04 +0100

Considering that no one has proven what lies ahead after death. I feel it is better to live knowing what the deal is, rather than to swan dive into the great unknown. To simply give up and kill yourself is too easy, and weak. To stand up, pull your shoulders back and face whatever the world can throw at you is the sign of a hero.

Comment on: Suicide and faith are both cowardly escapes from reason

Bigthink — Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:32:37 +0100

Meaning is subjective. Things only have meaning once we choose to give them meaning, and they only have as much meaning as we choose to give. Meaning is not some inherent trait in reality

Comment on: Suicide and faith are both cowardly escapes from reason

Bigthink — Wed, 23 Jan 2008 01:12:14 +0100

To pokoj: At some level everything has meaning (even if it's insignificant) which was the point I was trying to make here. Although sitting here thinking about it now...some things don't appear to have meaning other than to suggest the level of meaning i.e. rape, incest, the holocaust..etc., what's the meaning in those things? Cause it's hard to see the meaning in things like that (which was the second point I wast trying to make). I guess horrible things like that only serve to show someone the "levels" of meaning...

Comment on: Suicide and faith are both cowardly escapes from reason

Bigthink — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:12:06 +0100

@pokoj--
I'm fairly certain that I clearly stated that my position in the matter of humanity's specialness is: "I don't know."
I simply stated that I'm more inclined to believe we aren't special, in the sense that we're made with more, hm.. "purpose" than other creatures. We are. We do. That is all.

Comment on: Suicide and faith are both cowardly escapes from reason

Bigthink — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 20:40:37 +0100

I wouldn't say a person like that is weak. Regardless of god's existence, it is our choice to believe him or not, and our choice to listen to him or not if we do believe. His choice to reject the word of the god in which he believes may be irrational, but certainly not weak. I takes a lot of courage to ignore god if you believe in him and the repercussions of such actions

Comment on: Suicide and faith are both cowardly escapes from reason

Bigthink — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 20:05:39 +0100

its actually worse...

Comment on: Suicide and faith are both cowardly escapes from reason

Bigthink — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 14:54:27 +0100

pokoj -

First, I think most would agree here that dying in the act of saving another is not the suicide we are talking about. Would you consider the death of soldier suicide because he puts himself in harms way to save his country and his fellow soldiers?

Second, I thought I made it pretty clear that I am talking about possibilities, not truths. If we cannot prove something we must except the possibility of something else, not the truth of something else. Faith is the rejection of possibility. Faith says "I'm just going to assume that I'm right, even without proof."

As far as an afterlife, I've never believed in one. I was raised Jewish, and Jews have no concept of an afterlife. I guess I would not care so much for this life, seeing as how it would be just a blip compared to the eternity to come.

I also can't understand how one can believe in a personal god and choose not to listen to him. Seems to me that's no different than rejecting god in the first place.

Comment on: Suicide and faith are both cowardly escapes from reason

Bigthink — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 06:56:27 +0100

Icculus: some situations as suicide not being cowardice... giving your life to save someone else's. Say... you see a bus moving towards a child that has tripped and fallen in front of it too quickly to stop before the bus hits and most certainly kills the child... you have an instant to choose between your life and your own... running out, picking that child up and throwing out of the way (though that may hurt the child as well, it wouldn't kill them) and putting your life in front of the bus instead. How would an atheist justify this action if not through bravery unless the intent of the saviour of the child was to provide an acceptable reason in the eyes of society to kill yourself?

Absurdist: Faith is that much harder because we understand that it is so irrational and unlikely, but still believe it because in our heart we have felt it as truth, and though maybe unable to describe it to others and do it justice, the feeling is there and very strong... and Faith is not the loss of freedom... mostly the opposite... coming to the realization that this life is not the end, and that there is more to hope for can be very disconcerting to some believers. For example... if you believe in God but find yourself unable because of weakness to listen to Him, and know that your soul is decaying, would you then turn to a happy life now in exchange for an eternity of madness and pain? Or would you trust in God to pull you out of it eventually? I'm not asking you personally as an atheist, more so I'm asking you to consider what you would do if you believed in an afterlife.
And in your second comment... you're saying that because we have no proof in one hand, we must accept the other? So existence is dualist in nature? I don't think this is what you meant, correct me if I'm wrong... but disproving one side does not prove the other.

Josiewelsy: how can some things in life have meaning and not others? I think in this sense, everything has to have some level of significance, even in its insignificance, in order for other things to be important and have meaning...

I am: I agree with the comment about suggesting things about other people's life. I don't want this site to be destroyed by ignorance through flaming, which could happen very quickly, even though people tend to be more candid about it at the beginning. It needs to be open to all ideas, and not have personal attacks affecting comments and ideas.
But how can you be certain that human's aren't special... especially on our planet? Even considering the negative effects, we obviously have more influence on the planet that any other living species, except for maybe bacteria. If it was our sole desire, we could destroy the planet. In the same sense, we could make it a paradise. But this would rely on our species working together with the same goal, and humankind is more selfish than not. At least right now.

jillicious: I agree. Accepting all aspects of life in its apparent ridiculousness takes courage no matter what faith or lack thereof you prescribe to.

So in response to the main topic, as I said in a similar discussion ("is suicide a final act of bravery or cowardice?")--
Cowardice could be considered a part of it, but also the loss of desire to live and the rage of continuing to live when you can't deal with current circumstances can overpower strength and bravery. It is a loss of the natural impulse to go on living by any means possible. And occasionally it pops up when someone else's life is at stake along with your own, e.g. those rare stories you hear of someone allowing themselves to die to save someone else. That couldn't be considered cowardice unless it was done to appear brave when one truly does it as an acceptable way to kill yourself.

Some may not consider it "lucky" to live long lives... that is the worst kind of cowardice... wanting to die, too afraid to kill yourself, and going on living hoping to die as soon as possible, even doing things such as smoking and drinking to speed up the process...

Comment on: Suicide and faith are both cowardly escapes from reason

Bigthink — Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:55:36 +0100

It does take courage to live. It is hard to sit and just feel, when the feelings are not all jovial/faith in god like, but I think it's at those time where we learn the most about ourselves and our strengths and our limitations. That bold honesty, being with struggle, being fully alive...takes guts!

Comment on: Suicide and faith are both cowardly escapes from reason

Bigthink — Mon, 21 Jan 2008 15:37:34 +0100

Ok, perhaps I should have said "POSSIBLY devoid of all three". A poor choice of words that does reflect my intention. My apologies.

I agree, it is an inherent part of my own philosophy that I must accept the possibility that I am wrong. In fact, that might be the most important part. If I were to say that there is absolutely no meaning, order or unity, then I would be guilty of accepting a faith no different than that of religion, since I cannot prove the non-existence of any them.

What I meant by those poorly chosen words is that because there is currently no concrete reason to believe in meaning, order or unity, we must accept the possibility that they do not exist. Accepting that possibility is the struggle, and rejecting that possibility is faith, which I see as a cowardly escape from that struggle

Comment on: Suicide and faith are both cowardly escapes from reason

Bigthink — Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:35:06 +0100

The most you can say about the idea that reality is devoid of reason, order, and unity is that you don't know whether or not this is the case. The two arguments, for and against this theory, are based on either the unconvincing belief that humans are special, or the exact opposite. I don't know whether the fact that humans are not special can be proven, but I'm practically certain it CAN'T be proven that humans ARE special. For this reason, I agree with you completely Absurdist.

@Grimsim --
Try not to suggest things about other people's private lives on here. It doesn't help your argument, it just shows what you think about people who disagree with you: they must not have a credible position.

@The Absurdist --
Ditto.

-------------------------------

I'm not trying to insult anyone, I'm simply urging you to argue only against people's ideas, not against the writer him/herself.

Comment on: Suicide and faith are both cowardly escapes from reason

Bigthink — Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:55:01 +0100

A have a quick comment...
"A reality which is devoid of all 3 - meaning, order, and unity." Suggesting that reality has none of these. Are you suggesting that YOUR reality is ONLY a constant increment and diminishment of struggles? Sure, I'll buy that not everything has meaning, order or unity and I do believe in the journey not necessarily the destination, but to suggest that reality is devoid of those 3 things is just ridiculous. It's very one-sided.

Comment on: Suicide and faith are both cowardly escapes from reason

Bigthink — Sun, 20 Jan 2008 07:01:27 +0100

Grimsim -

First, I'm not having any difficulty finding my place in life. My place is wherever I want it to be! It's hard to express that feeling of freedom to someone who has never had it. I fee I've done very well for myself, and I'm a very happy person.

You've given all the right examples and reasoned them all incorrectly. It's so much easier to take the path of imagining a better future then to accept the possibility that there may not be one. If faith is so much harder as you say, then why does 80% of America have faith in an afterlife?

You are right, people who gain faith do so because of an intense moment or series of events. It is in that time that idea of pointless life becomes painfully unbearable, and one gives up the struggle with a pointless life by suicide or by accepting faith in something better.

I've been through such intense events, but did not give up my skepticism. The pain went away with time and I'm personally much happier now because I know that I was strong enough not to give up my freedom.

Comment on: Suicide and faith are both cowardly escapes from reason

Bigthink — Sun, 20 Jan 2008 00:17:57 +0100

"Life is an absurd struggle between the human longing for meaning, order, and unity, and a reality which is void of all three."

Irrespective of the writer having difficulties finding him/herself or not, this is deep and something I can get behind.

I would be interested to have Grimsim provide some (obviously theorized) situations where suicide would not be considered a cowardly escape.

Comment on: Suicide and faith are both cowardly escapes from reason

Bigthink — Sat, 19 Jan 2008 21:14:23 +0100

I suggest the opinion of the writer is presently having difficulties finding his place in life. To say that suicide is cowardice may only be accurate in a few cases and to suggest that faith is cowardice could be no further from the truth.

Faith has many labels, not all associated with religion. Faith is better described as hope and it takes a lot of strength to muster and maintain.
People who gain faith have often undergone an intense moment or series of events. Their hope is sometimes born from adversity and is a demonstration of courage and hope.

To suggest that suicide is cowardice is a hit/miss label, but to suggest faith is cowardice is a reflection of immature thinking.