Bigthink - Idea Comments Feed

Comment on: Re: Re: What is ethical globalization?

Bigthink — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 23:09:50 +0100

First, sorry for the delayed reply. I hope this dialog is still of interest. I appreciate the core of what you are promoting, and would very much like to see a socio-economic system developed along those lines. Where I demur is in the suggestion that this is a desirable global model.
In my opinion, the criteria for a viable social construct changes when considering global implementation. When considering a global social construct, we are affectively considering a system that will serve all of humanity. This creates difficulties when talking about the underlying 'values' behind the system (such as 'justice') since we've not yet found much in the way of universal moral or ethical systems (not to mention that values change with time and experience). The best we can do is to limit such discussions to what is common in the vast majority of ethical systems, and using that as a foundation. Such a system would be incomplete, and, in itself, be unable to fully serve the needs of all peoples. It is my opinion that such a weak and incomplete system is, today, the most viable. Such an incomplete construct would be forced to rely on the various peoples of the world to augment (within their societies) the system, thereby allowing a diversity of localized systems that more closely fit the ethical values of the various peoples of the world. It is my view that the first, and most universal principles, are those that deal with self determination, and those should be the only values considered in a global construct. A system embodying such a narrow ethical framework may not always enforce justice, equality, or other such values, but would ensure that individuals are free to take part in or abandon societies that do not conform to their understanding of these values. By allowing diverse (and even divergent) ideas to be explored by free peoples we would 'discover' what systems work rather than 'masterminding' them (as we currently do). To help illustrate the importance of such a diversity of systems, consider what would happen if we, after considerable forethought, settled on a single system, employed it worldwide, and it failed. If the economy or political system of a single society fails, it is a tragedy, yet is only one among many, but if there is only one and it fails%u2026
There is also the question of the structure of such systems. We've not yet learned to construct social systems that are, over time, resistant to corruption and abuse. We must acknowledge that there are those that seek to use any social constructs we establish to their own end (and some, to the point of enslaving all of humanity if possible). Inevitably, at some point, efforts will be made to manipulate global constructs to the advantage of some segment of the population. The more power and influence afforded to global constructs, the more likely they will be a target of such attempts, the more aggressive the attempts will be, and the more harm such institutions can cause when the attempts succeed. Global constructs must, by structure, be week, with narrow focus, and designed around the reality of the diverse and changing nature of human societies; they must provide a framework that supports and protects diverse and changing societies while hindering the consolidation of wealth, power and influence, but little more. The rest must be left in the hands of free peoples.

Comment on: Re: Re: What is ethical globalization?

Bigthink — Fri, 08 Feb 2008 19:07:17 +0100

I studied linquistics, so logical systems are my thing too.

But it is important to understand that from a socio-cultural perspective, it is economic pressures that drive social change.

Right now, we have an opportunity to link a "global ethic" (Mary Robinson metions Hans Kung) with a co-operative and global economy. With the US economy doing so poorly, there is a chance that we could let other economies buy in (not through investing in the stock market- through producing as part of a united economy).

As US consumers, we can put economic pressures on the goveernment and on corporations by forming a buying co-operative. Heck, the entire world buying community can get in on this!

Comment on: Re: Re: What is ethical globalization?

Bigthink — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 21:54:52 +0100

Maybe it's because I am an engineer, and I deal with logical systems all day every day, but I have a tendency to look at the mechanics of a system and evaluate systems on their structure rather than, what is more common, their underlying values. I think this is important because the social constructs we fashion are the embodiment of a set of values, but, once established, work according to their structure, not the values that spawned them. In my opinion, many that champion capitalism, and democracy, do so from the point of view of the values they embody, and do not pay enough attention to the reality of the, very real, flaws that exist in the social constructs we've set up to be their concrete manifestations. Most agree with the values behind capitalism and while we can argue about them, to me, it seems obvious the economic system we've created diverges quite far from the values that spawned it. I think building awareness of this, and acknowledging the distinction between the idea of capitalism and the capitalistic system will make it easier to talk critically about the economic system without being perceived as attacking capitalism itself. I understand that there are those that disagree with even the ideas behind capitalism, but for the most part, and especially here in the states, this avenue is not likely to lead to any change at all since the US is a capitalistic country. For those that favor capitalism, having our economic system more accurately embody morally defensible capitalist values is prevalent. For those that oppose the system, holding the system to the standard of its values at least holds it to a morally justifiable framework (that is malleable and can be refined over time as our understanding of justice, equality, and freedom deepen), which is better than leaving it open to ramped manipulation by the powerful. Any significant change to the capitalistic system will be problematic, and any changes that limit or hinder the consolidation and use of economic power will undoubtedly be hard fought.

I am not yet convinced that the ideas of capitalism are in direct conflict with political and social justice, though I concede that this may be the case. I am, however, convinced that the capitalist economic system we've created is, as you have stated, in conflict with social justice and political democracy. The idea of merging the economic and political system into a more socially responsible and democratic economic system gives me pause. This is because I have a fear (possibly phobic) of monoism or the tendency to collapse many into one. Such tendencies often create efficiencies and conveniences at the cost of consolidating power and limiting alternatives. I'd rather have less, live with inefficiencies and a manageable degree of disorganization, than face the possibility of handing the global-uni-econo-gov over to the overly interested lot, Smith termed, 'the masters of mankind', and live under their 'vile maxim'. I think it would be sufficient to take measures to ensure that the economic system functions under the discretion of the political system (i.e. political system wields supreme power as bestowed by the sovereign citizenry) and that it is insulated from distorting influences from the economic system (clearly not the case now). Sorry that got so long.. need to work on brevity.

Comment on: Re: Re: What is ethical globalization?

Bigthink — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 20:00:24 +0100

I think that the separation of economic from the socio-political system is what needs to restructure. If we are really going to pursure ethical globalization, then our socio-political values should be aligned with our economic interests.

A capitalistic economy is in conflict with social justice and political democracy.

This is problematic.

Comment on: Re: Re: What is ethical globalization?

Bigthink — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 06:55:10 +0100

The way I see it, our society (and many others) consist of two dominant systems, our political system (democracy), and our economic system (capitalism). While these systems serve different purposes and function quite differently, they both can be influenced strongly buy our actions. In the political system we use our vote to elect those whom are to run our country. In the economic system we use our dollar vote to choose what products are to be produced. It is my opinion that we have neglected the power of our dollar votes for far too long. This is mostly because most of us are too busy just getting buy to worry about buying anything other than the most affordable of goods, but there is also a significant lack of information about the environmental and social costs of products. We can be sure the companies will hinder the release of unfavorable information about their products, and that if consumers start making more purchasing decisions based on factors other than prices and product quality, we can expect the same kind of 'push the limits of truth' advertising about any new factors as we see today. I am wondering what we can do to get more information about environmentally responsible and socially responsible products, and how we can be sure that information is meaningful (not some 'free-range chicken' farce)?

As a minor side comment,
"governments and corporations need to stop making decisions about the fate of third world people"
I assume you mean the governments of the developed world making decisions about peoples in other countries who's interests are not represented. In this I agree. As far as the harm that governments of developing countries inflict upon their populations, I think we should focus more on spreading democracy and using our influence to allow populations to be self determined rather then, what is more often the case, spreading capitalism under the guise of democracy.