Transcript: Well we’re very keen to show the best of the global art. So not only do we show, of course, the best artists from America, from Europe, the ‘80s and ‘90s; but you’ve mentioned China which has gone through an incredible development in the art market over the last two or three years. We are the best at showing contemporary art from Russia. This is a market that has a long way to go still compared to where the Chinese market is now. I view it as two to three years behind the Chinese market. Indian contemporary art has become a major phenomenon. Art from the Gulf countries is going to become more and more important; Latin America in general. So there is an enormous wealth of good art that is being made. At the same time you have to be aware that only a few artists really stick out and will make it in the long term. So you have to follow what’s being made, and then really concentrate on the artists that have the best long term potential.

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Transcript: I mean I would love to sit in your chair and interview all great living artists. I mean interview people like Jeff Koons, like _________, some of the most famous names. But I find nothing more stimulating as direct contact with living artists, with highly creative individuals. Nothing is more stimulating. The wonderful thing is with Jeff Koons is he is one of the most articulate people I’ve ever met. And you would just ask him something and then you . . . the rest would come by himself. And I actually invited him to give a lecture many years back in Geneva. I think it was something like 15 years back, and he showed some large slides of his work. Which some of his work at the time was quite provocative. And at the time several clients got up in the middle of the lecture and left in the middle of the talk. And so I said, “Oh my god. I must have lost some important clients there.” But the next day those same clients called me up and said, “Listen, I’m deeply shocked that somebody who looks as prim and proper as you would invite such an individual showing such shocking work. But despite the fact that I’m so shocked, there’s something I want to sell. Why don’t you come around to my place and I’ll show you that work.” So even by being utterly shocked, those clients then wanted to sell their works to us. So it can have a very positive impact.

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Transcript: Yes it is beginning to happen. In England for instance, you have David de Rothschild who has worked with designers, furniture makers to try and use recycled materials; transform them into works of art; or Africa has some of the greatest talent today. Artistic talent is coming out of Africa, and it is sensational to see how materials, you know, can . . . of very common objects are being recycled into major works of art. And so yes, one just begins to see something of that happening. There is a great collection of African art put together by a collector called John __________ . . . John _________, that collection has traveled through various museums. I think it was shown at the . . . the Hirshhorn if I’m not mistaken in Washington. It was shown at the Guggenheim Museum in Bilboa. It was shown at the Monte Carlo. It was shown at the Venice bi-annual. The last one, there was a whole section devoted to African art which showed some of those aspects. And . . . But it’s still not easy to find that art, and there are one or two good books that have been written on the subject.

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Transcript: What is interesting is whenever you have an economic activity that develops in a place, you have parallel to that a very strong creative art birth. For instance in the early ‘90s when the new technologies became very strong in Seattle and the areas, and you had the whole grunge music that happened in the same place . . . And that’s no coincidence. You had groups like Nirvana, Sound Garden, Pearl Jam, and all of that – that became big, and then it became a worldwide movement. Or if you have such a vibrant situation in China for instance, today, it is to do also with the strong economic development. So you can safely assume that those places that have the strongest economic development in the years to come will equally produce some of the most interesting art. So Brazil – Brazil is an extraordinary place, and some great, great art is being produced in Brazil today. So we see it in our web site. You see the global interests. You can actually calculate how many hits you get from each country. You see that interest coming out of places like Brazil for contemporary art is massive; or the interest that we get out of countries like Indonesia, huge; Turkey, massive. And so these are some of the places that are going to produce some of the best art.

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Transcript: The great thing is that in every time, even when the art market is very hot as we see it now, there are artists who are totally under the radar, and who do not get properly appreciated. And so you have to take the long-term view of who these artists are that will have a long lasting influence. I’ve mentioned earlier in this talk Frank Stella. While he is a world known artist, I feel that he is an artist who is totally under-evaluated (undervalued) overall versus his artistic importance. And . . . Or if you take an artist like Eric Fischl who emerged in the 1980s, I view him as one of the great American artists in the tradition of Winslow Homer, of Edward Hopper, and he creates very little work. So if you extrapolate looking forward, he will be a seminal artist. And so compared to his importance, he’s totally undervalued today.

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Transcript: I think the new technologies allow artists to use totally new tools. And I mean video art has now been a mainstay of the contemporary art market for the last 20 years. But I think that it’s still very difficult to anticipate what totally new, novel type of artworks will, you know, be introduced into what we know today as . . . And so there will be much wider use of mediums at the disposal of the artists working today or tomorrow. I think there are plenty of people who try to bring scientists and artists together to see, you know, how to create a cross-fertilization between those worlds. There are specific artists whose work overall really focuses on that aspect. One of the most interesting British artists is _________ Tyson. And he is very much plugged into what happens in the scientific world, and his whole work is actually based on that. And that’s an example of the influence of what’s happening in the scientific world or the artistic world.

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Question: How does art inform our lives?

Transcript: And very often it comes from very unexpected areas. My other great passion in life besides art, and contemporary art in particular, is music – rock, pop, hip-hop, world music – all types of contemporary music. Now one of the greatest contributions in the culture of contemporary art world over the last 25 years has been the whole hip-hop movement. I mean I love the music by great singers like Tupac Shakur, or Kanye West, or Jay-Z, or 50 Cent. These are great artists in a universal sense, and they have been great influences. They had the Japanese popular artists like __________, like Mista – that’s his artist name. Or __________. These are all artists that have a close link to the hip-hop culture. And so these fascinating cross currents between Japanese contemporary art and African-American musical culture . . . these things that have created a culture where all the young people – the way they dress, the whole fashion sense – all that has evolved and has been a major cultural influence on what see today. And I think it’s to identify these changes that take place which often come from the street, which come from the music, which come from fashion, which come from totally new, unexpected areas that shape the art of tomorrow. And that’s what truly is exciting.

Question: Is there artistry in other fields?

Transcript: I think that even areas which seem unartistic at first sight like a lawyer for instance or a banker can be so innovative or so creative that they become great artists. For me one of the greatest artists in the 21st century and the 20th century is Steve Jobs. What he’s done with Apple, that is true art – to get totally excited by an object that you look at which is an object like a portable phone or an iPod that gives you such a kick – that is like being excited by a work of art. So yes, you can make anything you do . . . transform it into a major art form.

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Transcript: Listen. We all need to live with pressure. And I think it’s good for an artist as well to deal with some pressure. And what you see is that, you know, when an artist has great commercial success it is a double-edged sword. Because if an artist only produces for the market and loses his creative edge, he loses everything. He loses the essence of his work itself. And so some artists have creatively died because they just went on repeating and repeating the same thing just because it was working. The true great artists are those who constantly challenge themselves and go on, move on and reinvent themselves constantly. I mean one of the greatest 20th century American artists, Frank Stella – who is vibrant now in his seventies and produces some of the best work he’s ever done – he hasn’t sat still one second. Whenever something was really successful and working, he moved on to the next thing and did something totally new and constantly evolved. That’s what a truly great artist does.

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Transcript: I’m always interested by the most recent ones. So my favorite 20th century designers are possibly also my favorite 21st century designers. So I’ve already mentioned Ron ___________ and Mark ___________ for instance. I would add people like Ross Lovegrove who I think is phenomenally imaginative and very, very talented. ________ – again she is on the cusp of the 20th and 21st century. Not only is she a stunning architect, but she is creating extraordinary furniture and objects. Then I love if we do go back a little bit in time, of course furniture created by architects like __________, or Charlotte _________, or ___________. Then going back even further, of course Charles __________ McIntosh at the beginning of the 20th century is a major figure. Then I love also, you know, less known figures who have done things that are not so, you know, widely known.

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Question: What is design?

Transcript: You see what is wonderful about the period we live in now is all these artificial borders between visual arts, photography, design; between fashion; between architecture; all those artificial borders are completely disappearing. And for me there’s only one thing – either somebody is a great artist or he’s not. So you have some incredible artists who express themselves by creating furniture, or objects that you can use on a daily basis. And some artists like the Australian mega star of the design world Mark __________; or the equally great mega start Ron __________ are producing unbelievably beautiful objects that are stunning sculptures, stunning works of art. And on top of that you can sit on them or you can live with them. So it’s . . . And nowadays somebody who collects great art doesn’t want to have ugly furniture in his home or mediocre daily objects. He wants to surround himself with the best. But it has to be challenging, stimulating, and exciting, whatever you surround yourself with.

Question: When does furniture become a work of art?

Transcript: It becomes a work of art when it is aesthetically pleasing; when it is so extraordinary that you look at it far beyond its function; that you no longer look at it just as a piece of furniture; but where you think that it’s so stunning that it is a great work of art.

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Transcript: I love arts of all periods. So for instance there is a portrait of the Renaissance artist ___________. A portrait of __________, which is one of the most beautiful portraits ever done. It’s a woman in profile. You fall madly in love with her when you see it. Or there is a painting by ________ that is in the __________ of a dog. It’s one of the most moving paintings I’ve ever seen. But in the more recent past, I love, for instance, the Pink Panther sculpture by Jeff Koons. It’s a phenomenal work of art. Yes, I mean in every period you have great art that excites you.

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Transcript: No I don’t think it’s lost it in any way. I think it’s even gained more of its status. And when you achieve things in life, or commercial success for instance, once you have everything you need, and people who bought big houses, boats, planes and all of that, or a football club – anything like that – nothing brings you the level of satisfaction and quality of life that collecting art brings you. And nothing brings you, I think, the status if you are playing an important role on a cultural level. I mean you’ve seen people who have been phenomenally successful as entrepreneurs in the commercial sense. But if they don’t have that commercial dimension, they simply will not leave the same lasting impact as those who have played a prominent role on the cultural scene.

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Transcript: The great thing is that collecting is a disease that has nothing to do with the amount of money that you own. You can be an obsessive collector with very limited means, and you can do great collections with limited means. And equally I have seen people with unlimited money who put lousy collections together. So it is a question linked to identifying what you love, what you truly believe in, and then really going for it. I know a man who is a ticket collector on the train between ____________ and Paris. And that’s his job, and so he lives on a salary that you can imagine must be, you know, not huge. Well this man is so obsessed with contemporary art. So he’s been buying lithographs, prints – large edition prints; illustrated books by artists. And having done that for the last 25 years, he’s built up a very valuable, valuable collection for himself. Or I know a man who has a ____________. He does fantastic pastry – the best desserts and best cakes. He is in the Swiss Alps. And so again I mean he does fabulous pastry, but he wouldn’t make that much money with that. Well as a young man he was interested in 18th century pastel. The pastel is a special technique done by artists with color crayons – oil crayons. He over the years has put together one of the worldwide most important collections in that field. Again that collection has become invaluable. Well he didn’t spend a lot of money building that collection. It was just commitment, persistence, obsession and passion.

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Transcript: Well I don’t like the expression “investing in art”, because I’ve always seen that people who buy art with passion and don’t think primarily of the investment point of view are those who at the end of the day do by far the best investment. And those who approach it very coldly – purely as an investment – they often can fall flat on their face. So there’s a certain justice in that sense. But this being said, if you approach it intelligently, it at the end of the day is possibly the best investment you can do. Because we advise collectors also from investment point of view. And over the last 10 years they tell us that they have faired far, far better in art than in any other area they have invested in.

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Transcript: Yes we definitely will. I think there will be new collecting categories that we . . . don’t even exist yet at this moment; or that haven’t come to total fruition – that are gonna become more and more important. For instance old portable telephones; old computers; all these objects that we take for granted; that we use in our daily lives change nearly every four to six months – those will become collecting categories in their own right. I mentioned earlier Japanese toys and robots. They will become more and more valuable. They will be limited editions by those artists who are great artists in their own right. And so these are markets that are going to develop and grow, so taste is constantly evolving.

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Transcript:  Yes.  We definitely view ourselves as also having a curatorial responsibility in a sense.  And when we try and put an auction together we try and put it together like an exhibition.  For instance we are going to do the first auction ever fully devoted to Japanese contemporary culture shortly.  Japanese contemporary culture has a huge influence on the use all over the world.  I mean up through the early ‘80s, American pop culture was a dominant culture for young children all over the world.  Since the ‘80s, Japanese pop culture has taken over.  So when you look at children, they are very much influenced by the electronic games they play; by the mangas; by the cartoon characters; by those toys; by those robots and all of that.  So it’s all that Japanese culture that has become universally very important.  And so we are going to have an auction which we put together like a museum where we show the best contemporary art – artists like _____________; by ____________; by the best Japanese photographers like _____________ or ___________; but also the best Japanese designers, the fashion makers, the toy designers; and where we mix all that and bring it all together – the high and low, the best of Japanese culture.  So yes, we view ourselves as curators, and we like to put shows together as if we were museum curators.

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Transcript: First of all I think that any market, whatever it is, cannot develop only in one direction.  I mean I think it’s the essence of markets.  Let’s say we’ll move and change, and that certain things will go up.  Certain things will stay flat.  And certain things may go down.  Overall if you observe the way the art market has developed since the mid-19th century, the overall curve is only moving upwards.  So if you take a long-term view of things, you cannot go wrong by buying the best quality.  Tastes evolves.  What we love today may not be loved in 30, 40 years from now.  But if you buy the best quality given the field that you focus in, automatically it’s going to go up in value.  And there is a question of scarcity because every year thousands of works of art end up in public collections, in museums.  And those works are never coming back into the marketplace.  So it’s not just an issue of money.  It’s an issue of availability.  Today even with unlimited amounts of money, you can no longer do the best __________ collection in the world.  It’s impossible.  You can no longer do the best impressionist collection.  It’s impossible.  You can probably no longer do the best modern collection.  However you can do the best contemporary arts collection in the world.  And so . . .  But in five, 10 years from now, you won’t be able to find the best Jeff Koonses anymore, the best ________ anymore.  Those works will be gone.  So that leads me to think that in long term, the art market will only go from strength to strength.  Of course there will be moments of slow downs, of change in fashion.  But the basis for the international art markets is much wider than it’s ever been.  It’s truly global.  But it’s linked to emotions.  It’s linked to feelings.  So if everybody feels, “My god, we’re going into a crisis.  It’s really, really tough,” then maybe you feel less like spending if the mood is ebullient and very positive around you.  So that’s a psychological factor which is very difficult to gauge.  So at the end of the day you should follow your passion, buy what you love, and you can’t go wrong in the long term.

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Transcript:  I mean the guarantees are a result of the heated competition between the various auction companies.  And every now and then you have a vendor or an institution that, when they sell, want to be absolutely certain.  They want to protect their down side.  And so the auction . . . the company gives a guarantee, no matter what happens on the day of the sale.  So if it sells for less than the guaranteed amount, the auction house has to make up for the difference.  So you protect the down side, but at the same time you get paid for the upside.  So if you do far better than the guarantee, you take a much bigger part of the . . . of the upside.  Now in a strong market like we’ve witnessed in the last three to five years, there have been more and more guarantees given out by the main auction houses.  It is something that we also do; that we prepare to do in certain specific cases.  But when the market is very strong, there is no need to get a guarantee.  In fact, if you don’t have a guarantee and you do sell for a record price, you make more money like that than by taking a guarantee.  So it’s are you a pessimist or an optimist.  Do you want to protect your down side or your up side?

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Transcript: Oh well you have of course great collectors all over the world. And in the United States of America, my greatest _________ is to somebody like Mr. Ronald _______ who is one of the greatest collectors I have ever known. Because what is unique about him is that his taste goes from early 20th century Austrian and German paintings to contemporary art. But equally he buys medieval works of art. He buys old master paintings, drawings. And in every field he has an impeccable eye. He has an amazing sense of quality; a totally unique sense of quality. He is an artist in his own right, because collecting is a very creative process. But one of the greatest tastemakers and collectors for the 21st century and late 20th century is certainly Charles ________. At Phillips de Pury & Company we have a partnership with the _____________ collection in London, and careers of artists like Damien Hurst, or all the YBAs – the young British artists – but also the key German artists; the key Chinese artists – because the ____________ collection is going to open with a great show ________ Chinese art – have been very much happening as a result of the influence of somebody like Charles __________. So he definitely is one of the great tastemakers and collectors of today. I also have great admiration for somebody like Victor Pinchuk in Kiev who has just created the Pinchuk Art Center. And he is a very bold man, like the great Russian collectors of the early 20th century; like _________ and ___________, he buys . . . They . . . __________ are buying young, contemporary artists like Matisse and Picasso. Well Pinchuk has the same approach. He buys the best contemporary artists worldwide and goes really into it, and is very bold and builds positions for those artists.

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Transcript: The key is to identify what you really personally like. You have to buy with your guts, with your own eyes, with what you personally feel appeals to you. Because automatically you will develop your own dialogue with the art that you look at. Then the secret is to see, see, and see again. So you go and visit fairs. You visit museums. You visit galleries. You visit the auction exhibitions. The more you look at, automatically what is good starts to stick out. And you train your eye, and at the same time of course you can get advice from the greatest professionals in the field who will very happily guide you and help you. But you have to make your experiences yourself like with everything else in life. And by making those experiences yourself, that’s how you do the best.

Recorded on: 2/7/08