Transcript: I mean I think one is allowing more African voices, first of all. I mean I think there are . . . there are . . . there is a perspective on events that you’ll get from somebody who is from that place, or who is rooted in that place in a way that a reporter isn’t. If that person has the journalistic skills obviously necessary to tell the story, I think you get a certain . . . You’ll get a different perspective. You might get a more nuanced perspective; one that will . . . will step away from the broad strokes. This is a . . . you know and everybody loves the word “tribal conflict”. This is a tribal conflict. This is, you know, just people killing each other within . . . Like you’ll be able to understand like, “No, no, no, no wait. This is over this.” Like if this is . . . if this is the root cause, right, maybe we need to address this as opposed to just saying that, you know, these people are . . . this problem is unsolvable; it’s just . . . they just like to kill each other. I think that with more voices that say that, right . . . with more voices that bring . . . bring that perspective out, I think you’ll have a very different understanding of what it means to be involved in different issues on the continent. Also with more stories that focus on the positive, right . . . I mean I . . . we’ve talked about the negative because, you know, in a sense you do have to . . . you do have to address that because that’s the predominant way that people view ________. But at the same time like, you know, you talk about, for example, that 18 or 19 year old kid who’s doing that . . . All sorts of stories exist all over the place. You talk about . . . talking about those, bringing out those stories rather than focusing on creating, in whatever stories you write, a climate of fear, uncertainty, and despair, is there a way to work at also creating a climate of hope, right? Or creating an atmosphere of hope in what you write? And I think that’s really important. I mean I think both stories . . . both sets of . . . of situations need to be addressed. And I’m not one who’s gonna say, “Look. Don’t talk about the bad. Let’s just talk about the good.” That is useless. But the bottom line is like the good never gets talked about. The bad is always talked about. And I think that we really need to focus on how we can . . . how we can do that. What kind of stories can we tell that show that . . . that people aren’t creating; that people are living; that people are enjoying the lives that they live? That yes, people are living . . . that it gets hard to live in certain places, and there are certain things that are bothering people; but that doesn’t stop them from being humans and wanting more for themselves. And it’s that wanting more for yourself that allows you to better the place that you live in. You know and I think when people see that image – when people see that these people . . . this is a set of people who are working for and wanting . . . who want more and are working for that more that they want – I think that allows you to relate to that person as a human being. Versus the other image which is, you know, this is a person . . . this person has given up. No one can really relate to somebody who has given up entirely.

Recorded on: 10/7/07

Transcript: You know I guess I should just say, “Why is it that we always turn to violence to solve our problems?” That’s something that really, really bothers me – that we’re so quick to move in that direction, whether it’s . . . you know whether . . . You know I just don’t . . . It’s just something that really . . . like that really disturbs me and really bothers me. And I think a lot of it comes out of not taking the time to listen and reflect; that we’re so quick to . . . I mean you can tell like that’s a really big question for me. Like that’s . . . that’s one of the things that I think we all really need to explore is that . . . it’s just that. It’s why this particular path? That whether you’re from this place or that place, it seems to be the way that we interact with each other now. You know and that’s the language of fear, the language of violence, the language of pain, of . . . of hurt and suffering. That’s the currency of communication in the present day. Why is that? And you know if that’s . . . Why is it that way in the first place? And what can we do to transform that way of speaking or that way of framing . . . you know that way of interacting with people? Those are the two . . . I mean those . . . That’s really one question, but if anything that’s one that I keep on wondering about. And it’s something I think as a global society that we really need to look at and address.

Recorded on: 10/7/07

Transcript: It’s funny. Everybody is talk . . . everybody talks about China so much, and . . . China and Africa. And the fact that, you know, “Africans” or, you know, the different people in the different countries in Africa should be aware because China has such a bad human rights record. And like the way I see it honestly, I mean like it’s not like dealing with the west has been that great, you know what I’m saying? So you know like why should we be taking . . . You know why should people . . . And I feel like . . . I mean I feel like it’s not Africans who are afraid of China’s rise in Africa. It’s the west that’s afraid of China’s rise in Africa. Like for . . . for Africans it’s a double-edged sword as is any interaction. There are a lot of positives and there are a lot of negatives. I mean I think the hope is that with more players in the game; with more . . . more resources; with more sources of capital, right; and with more sources of ideas; if you are a leader with a vision in any one of the African countries, now is the time that you can actually . . . you can maximize, right? Now is the time that you have access to this set of . . . you know these set of people who are willing to work on these projects. You have access to these . . . Like now is the time to really leverage your . . . your . . . your resources to really . . . to really bargain while you have a chance to. Before you couldn’t do that, and I think that’s a good thing. At the same time one has to be very careful, because it’s very clear that Chinese involvement is not all positive. I mean you look at the Chinese in Sudan, right? That’s definitely not positive. But you look at, for example, the projects that China is willing to work on. And a lot of the things that the west won’t touch, the Chinese are ready to do. Infrastructure development, the west has been about . . . has been about extraction. The Chinese, yeah, they want oil. That’s true and no one is going to deny it. But at the same time, like the projects that they’ll work on are . . . are projects that . . . They need it to happen. Like the roads need to be built, right? Railroads need to be built. And if it’s this set of people who has that skill, and who have those resources, and who have that ability, then I don’t see why we shouldn’t be talking to them, right? And you know the . . . You can bring up human rights all you want. And I think what we need to do as Africans in our various countries is to make sure that our leaders are . . . are paying attention to that, and are trying to make sure we’re not exploited in that way. But I don’t necessarily think that it’s . . . that . . . that Europe or the United States has really any right to say that these people don’t respect human rights when the track record is just not very great on . . . on their side. The track record isn’t great on either side, so it’s up to us as Africans to make sure that that track record changes. And you know whether that’s with the Chinese, or whether that’s with Great Britain, or with the United States, it’s up to us to do that. And that’s maybe where we’re not pulling our weight. But as for the Chinese in Africa, I say if they are ready and willing to come in, then that connection should be developed – just responsibly.

Recorded on: 10/7/07

Transcript: It depends on who you ask. There are some people who will tell you oil is the greatest thing that ever happened to Nigeria. And there are other people who will tell you it’s the worst thing that ever happened. There are so many more issues and so many more levels to the conflict that are not discussed that if it’s going to be resolved, need to kind of be laid out on the table. And these go back into Nigeria’s history as a . . . you know as a nation; the way the country was constructed, the way the federal government was set up. Those go into the different ethnic groups that live in the oil producing regions. It goes into the interaction of the different ethnic groups in the country in general; like whether . . . like who . . . who has power, who doesn’t have power; how resources are shared amongst the states. It goes into the structure of the federal government and how money is allocated and spent. So there are so many issues that, if you wanted to deal with the oil issue, that have to be dealt with in addition. It’s not just simple . . . It’s not a simple just exploit . . . these are the bad guys, these are the good guys; because in this situation, really everybody is bad and everybody is good. It’s really one of those where you can’t separate it out. I mean you can find militant leaders who are “freedom fighters” who are busy bunkering oil and selling it on the black market. So who are they really helping, you know? You can find politicians who repre . . . “represent” people in this area who could really care less whether or not . . . who are from the place but could really care less whether or not anything happens. And you have people are . . . who have no connection who are really dedicated to try and find out how one can resolve the tensions in the area; how one can equitably share resources and make sure that everyone benefits from this resource that . . . that . . . that exists. So I mean the thing is the history of oil in Nigeria is really crazy and really interesting if you . . . if one reads about it and one sort of studies it. But I mean I’ve done a bit of reading about, again . . . about it. You know just sitting and talking to people about what’s going on in the Niger Delta, you get a fascin . . . Like if you were there in Nigeria and you asked, you’d get multiple perspectives – from these people are freedom fighters. They’re fighting for their . . . like they’re the ones who are gonna reform Nigeria; to it’s just a bunch of crooks; to, you know . . . You know I mean there’s so many different . . . there’s so many different perspectives that again, the telling of that story . . . It’s the telling of that story and making sure you get these perspectives, and making sure you get these different voices . . . that will, I think again, go a long way to helping people start . . . start to create a plan to resolve that situation.

Recorded on: 10/7/07

Transcript: I’ve never said that. I mean everything I’ve . . . everything I have said suggests that it’s not about isolation and that way of looking at society as discreet and discreet packages that are not . . . you know that rub up against each other but are not interconnected. That doesn’t work anymore. So this idea of “leave this set of people alone”, or “leave that set of people alone” is not . . . like that’s as far from my mentality as one could get. I think the idea is . . . I mean if anything what I’m saying is bring more people in. Let’s bring as many people as we can into the discussion that we’re having so that we hear all those voices, and so that we develop new ways of interacting with each other and not just the same frames that we’ve been putting forth over and over again; but like . . . you know that’s . . . let’s . . . let’s see who has something to say, and let’s . . . You know if their . . . if their opinion or if their idea isn’t valid, then it will be discredited. But the bottom line is it needs to be put out there. But if their idea or opinion is valid and no one ever gets to hear it because they’re not at the table; or because you say that, like, this society shouldn’t interact with that society for whatever reason, that’s a problem. That’s a really big problem. And you know if anything what I wanna do with my life, and what I hope that I’ve started doing is saying, “Let’s get these stories. Let’s get these ideas, and let’s put them together, and let’s see how we can bring people closer rather than saying, “You guys don’t know anything about this. Just stay to your side.” Or, “You guys just stay in your corner.” I think that’s . . . I think that’s the least productive way of addressing any issue that we have to deal with today.

Recorded on: 10/7/07

Transcript: I mean I can’t . . . I can’t . . . I don’t think I have any license or any rights to try and say that, “This is good,” or, “This is not good,” because that’s not my field, and I don’t really understand economics in any way that will allow me to comment. What I do hope, if I . . . if I will say one thing, I . . . that’s _________ critical is that I do hope that new voices from these places are allowed to comment on how these situations should be changed. Because for each of the people that you mentioned . . . I mean Paul Collier is British. Jeff Sachs is American. Bill Easterly is American. Obviously phenomenally smart guys with ideas. There are also phenomenally smart guys and women with ideas about how Africa can change; about how the different countries in Africa and different societies in Africa can change who are from the place. Again it’s an issue of media access. And I think that bringing up more voices to add to the debate, to the argument . . . You know I guess everybody is always talking about how Bill Easterly and Jeff Sachs don’t get along. But you know add more voices to that debate and have more people not get along, and see what you get from resolving those differences. But make sure that those voices also come from the place that people are writing about. That’s all I have to say; but you know I’m not going to say anything about whether, you know, increasing spending on this or decreasing spending on that . . . like I don’t know too much about that because I haven’t studied economics. Maybe . . . maybe God grants me a long enough life I will. I don’t know. I’ll make my comments.

Recorded on: 10/7/07

Transcript: You’re getting into areas that I don’t . . . I’m not as well-versed. I mean I think I can . . . You know I think the person to ask would be somebody who has really, really studied this. I’ve read, but I’m not an expert. And so anything I say needs to be taken with that in mind. I think one of the most obvious success examples is South Africa, right? With its constitution that is supremely inclusive; you know with . . . You know it’s not . . . it’s a country that’s not perfect, right? But I think that when they . . . when they tried to create a form of government after apartheid, they really strove to include everyone in that . . . include everyone in the process of creating that democracy, and I think it shows. I mean I think South Africa would be in a lot worse position had you not had visionaries like the Mandelas, or the __________, or the people there who came together after . . . both during apartheid and afterwards to create and structure their society. I think it would be a very different situation, but I think that’s an . . . that’s an obvious example. Maybe not all around, because obviously the money . . . the economic situation in South Africa isn’t that great for a lot of people. But I think that the way they govern that country, and the way that things are put together, I think, is pretty remarkable. I mean you only have to go to the . . . to the constitutional court in South Africa in Johannesburg to see . . . you know to see exactly what that sort of vision creates in term of a system of justice. And you only have to read their constitution to . . . to look at . . . to look at . . . to look at how beautiful, you know, it can be when you really do take the time to sit and think about and have a dialogue about these things. I mean I think economically everybody always looks at Botswana as a remarkable success story because they managed to . . . You know they’re a country that’s heavily resourced . . . You know it’s a resource-based economy – I guess off of diamonds and whatnot. But they’ve also managed to not succumb to, you know . . . to the same pitfalls that many resourced . . . heavily resource-based economies, you know, have succumbed to. So I mean Botswana’s another example. And then Ghana in recent years has been on the upswing. And you know I’ll go to Nigeria, which Nigeria for . . . has been . . . I mean I don’t think people acknowledge how much has changed in Nigeria. Is it a . . . Is it . . . Do we have a . . . We have a long way to go in Nigeria. No one is going to sit back and tell you that’s not the case. There’s a lot to be done; but I think, you know, eight years of democracy, it just came . . . people . . . when you go through 20-odd years of military dictatorship, people . . . it takes time for people to understand what choice is. It takes time for people to understand how to hold leaders accountable. It takes time for people to understand how, as an individual, I can have an impact on the way that society works. But I think what you see . . . What you’ve seen in the last eight years, and hopefully what you’ll see more of now, however flawed our last election was, is exactly that. And I think you just can’t underestimate that. And I think that that is . . . I think people overlook that all the time, right? I think that people overlook that all the time. But the fact of the matter is you look at where Nigeria was before and you look at where it is now; and you look at what people are doing; and how people are living; and how, you know, businesses are coming up; how there are more opportunities, it’s not at all perfect, and I . . . you know I don’t want to paint a super-rosy picture because that would be idiotic. But the bottom line is things are changing, and things are moving in Nigeria and other societies. And I think the more that people experience democracy, the more that people experience what it means to participate in government – in their own governments . . . governance – the faster these changes will happen. I think also what has been overlooked is the role that African countries have played in each other’s lives. I mean I think, you know, you look at Liberia and Sierra Leone, and people don’t really talk about how much of a role Nigeria played in stabilizing those countries. Was it ugly? Yeah it was ugly. I interviewed a bunch of Nigerian soldiers who had been part of stabilization forces or peacekeeping missions in Liberia and Sierra Leone. And the stories they tell will shock you. But at the same time they were there. They were there trying to make sure that they could get the situation resolved, you know? I don’t think people acknowledge how much that happens. You know people haven’t really talked about how much of a role . . . Excuse me. People haven’t really talked about how much of a role Nigeria and Rwanda and other countries have played in Sudan. Has it been effective? Maybe not so much. But the idea is there, right? And I think the fact that the idea is there needs to be put out to suggest to the world, look, we do care about each other. We do care about improving the situation of the continent as a whole. We are doing something.

Recorded on: 10/7/07

Transcript: Well let me . . . let me start by first saying that, like, it’s not, you know . . . I’m not just solely blaming the west. I’m not at all. I mean we talked about colonialism just because that’s a very big thing in the history of all these countries. It’s not just the west’s fault. I mean like there’s a lot that has happened that just is also . . . that you know, that everyone bears responsibility for. But I just wanna put that out there and make sure that that’s understood. I’m not just one of those reactionary people. But I mean I think in terms of responsibility, I think the responsibility isn’t just an Africa-specific responsibility. I think it’s this idea . . . this . . . this . . . It’s striving the way that one, I think, goes about remedying the problem. And I think you see it, for example, in the way that Al Gore has tried to paint global warming; or is that look, we all have a responsibility to each other, right? So that your problem is not just your problem, and I can’t just say it exists over there, right? Nor can I just say I’m going to come here and take from you. Like whether it’s oil, you know, in the case of Nigeria; or if it’s gold where they mine gold in certain countries; you can’t just say, “I’m gonna take without striving to construct.” I think that’s an issue. But I think that as you see what . . . what Al Gore has been doing is like, look, this thing is gonna affect all of us, right? This is a problem for all of us. Therefore we need to work at how we can all, you know, provide inputs as to how to solve it. And I think what has happened is for the longest time, no one has been interested in . . . in Africa first. I think for a while people were just kind of like, “Whatever. It exists.” And you know like, “Oh, you mean there are people there, too? I thought there were just lions,” right? I think that was . . . that was an attitude for a while. But I think now, the way that . . . that one can look at that situation and work just to . . . to improve situations is how can we all work together? First let’s listen, right? Let’s listen to what issues are here. How do we see the issues maybe as “outsiders”? How do you see the issues? I don’t think that that dialogue happens enough. Like let’s talk about the different perspectives we have on the issues. And you know as a . . . as maybe like a 24 year old person who grew up in Lagos, right, you’re gonna see your interaction with your environment and your interaction with the wider . . . wider world in a particular fashion. As the person coming from, I don’t know, London or New York or whatever, that person is gonna have a particular take as well. And I think those . . . First of all if you’re dealing with . . . Whatever problems you’re trying to solve, you need to first understand how you perceive the problems . . . is the first . . . I don’t know that that dialogue happens enough. Next, everybody’s ideas have to be . . . has valid. You know you can’t just say well, you know, just because you come from this place, you don’t really know what’s going on here. You know the bottom line is like . . . You know like different problems have been . . . Similar problems exist in different places. And people have each had . . . you know have come up with solutions to dealing . . . or ways of dealing with those problems. And you can take from those solutions. You can listen to the way that, you know, someone from India, or someone in the United Kingdom solved their problems of economic disparity. And you can take that and say, okay well apply this. But wait, our society exists or operates in this way, so maybe we need to tweak it. But I think you know, again, that’s probably one of the ways.

Recorded on: 10/7/07

Transcript: Yeah. I mean I wrote an article about that, and . . . which got me into a fair amount of trouble I guess. But I’ll just have to say it how it is. Again this is not . . . I’m not saying that people shouldn’t help. Like for me to say that would be absurd. I think people definitely should. And people should look outside of the places that they come and look for and strive to have these interactions with different sets and different types of people. It’s the framing that’s the issue. It’s the framing that’s the problem. You can’t get up and say that you are going to save Africa. You can’t get up and say that . . . that we are going to . . . “we” . . . these outsiders, we know what’s going on. We know how to do this. Because, you know, for all the reasons that I listed when I wrote that . . . the piece – it was called “Stop Trying to Save Africa” – like, one, doesn’t acknowledge the role that other societies had to play in the destruction of the fabric of this place. Two, it doesn’t acknowledge the humanity of the people. I should actually reverse that. One is that that role doesn’t acknowledge the humanity of the people that . . . that you’re supposedly trying to save or help. Two, it doesn’t acknowledge the role that X society had in causing the problems that exist currently. You know and I think that that . . . that language of, “Oh, we’re (59:05) going to save”; that image of, you know, like the western person there to help the starving people – I think that’s really insulting; not just to . . . like to . . . it should be insulting to everyone because it doesn’t acknowledge humanity. And I . . . You know I have to be very careful because I’m not saying that people shouldn’t go and help, right? That’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m just saying that when . . . when you do get up, and when one does say, “I want to go and improve the situation,” one has to think about what that means. And it’s not so simple as just, “I have good intentions. Therefore I can only do good.” It’s not that simple. There’s a lot that goes into it. There’s a lot of unspoken stuff. There’s a lot of . . . of cross-cultural interaction that needs to be explored and talked about, right, that I don’t think we spend enough time talking about. And I don’t think those images of X celebrity . . . you know like the . . . or the MTV documentary about such and such going to such and such place . . . I don’t think that those really discuss those other issues that are very, very important that is the framing and messaging behind how one helps.

Recorded on: 10/7/07

Transcript: Well I think you see it now. I mean you open a newspaper and there you have it. But it’s not just sort of what you see. It’s the way that what you see is written about, right? Because you read any newspaper in western society, right, and you have this phenomenon where Africans are labeled as backwards, incompetent, corrupt, and just generally violent. And this is entirely . . . I mean if you read certain newspapers . . . You read newspapers now, and you go back and you read newspapers from like the 1800s, or you read accounts from the 1800s, not too much variation, you know? You’d wonder whether or not things have change at all in the way that people perceive Africa and Africans. And that’s all in the legacy of colonialism in the way that this continent, and these countries, and these people are spoken about. I think it’s terrible.

Second, I think what you have is a lack of acknowledgement that certain countries were responsible for the state of this place, you know? And that you have . . . you . . . I think one has to be very careful when talking about . . . Because there . . . The images first . . . The images that we see of Africa are so . . . that are so engrained in our minds are of this place that is terrible – like hell on earth. And that doesn’t acknowledge the positive things – the many, many, many positive things – that people are doing. Which if you spend time in any one of these places, you’ll see how people are really innovating; how people are putting things together. I mean there’s a story of this . . . this . . . I think he’s an 18 or 19 year old guy in Malawi who, you know . . . He didn’t have electricity in his village, right? And he decided that well, shoot. You know what I’m gonna do? I’m gonna find out how to . . . how to bring electricity here. So he went, studied some books about how to make a wind turbine, and from scrap metal and bicycle parts came home and made a wind turbine. Now is that somebody who is incompetent, uneducated? No. That’s someone who has a desire to live and a desire to improve, and people don’t focus on that. I think that’s a problem. I think people also don’t realize – you know to go back to the other point that I was making – just how much of an impact that the interaction with Europe, the interaction with other . . . has had on Africa and the different populations and different peoples. I mean you know you look at . . . you look at coming to society extracting all you can, destroying the fabrics that existed before . . . the social fabrics that existed before. And just basically taking what you can take, getting what you can get. People don’t talk about the amount of destruction in terms of human lives that happen, whether it’s through slavery, or through for example what Belgium was doing in the Congo – the fragmentation of society that happened after that destruction of human life. You know and then all we get now when you read the newspaper is, “Oh well, you know, these people, they’ve been killing each other from time immemorial. They like . . . that’s what they do. That’s how they behave. That’s how they are. They’re just savages and there’s nothing we can do to help them.” Not acknowledging like look, if you hadn’t come in here and set this person against that person; if you hadn’t . . . for example what happened in Nigeria in the _________ culture. If you hadn’t elevated certain members of society, or created a . . . fragmented the traditional system of government, then you might not have the situation that you have right now. You know I think that we . . . we forget that when people talk about Africa, and colonialism and its impact on Africa. That’s past. I mean the argument that people make now is that . . . well you know like independence. A lot of these countries have been independent since the 1960s. They haven’t put things together. And it’s like, “Well hold on. Let’s talk about what independence means,” right? What’s independence in an era where you’re beholden to one of two super powers, right? What’s . . . What is independence when these super powers are supporting people against the will of the people, right? And then now they turn around and blame you for not being democratic. “Oh, you guys don’t understand democracy. You’ll never understand democracy.” It’s not that people don’t understand democracy. It’s that look, we’ve been trying. Like we want the system . . . We want to have a say. We want to have a voice, but some outside influences support people who will not allow us to have that voice. You know I don’t . . . I don’t see how you could be anything but super frustrated and angry if that’s the situation. You’re working towards something, and somebody is undermining that something you’re working towards at the same time will tell you you’re not working hard enough. And you’re like, “I don’t know what to do. I really don’t know what to do.” You know so I think there’s a lot . . . I mean I think the fact that we don’t really . . . that the world really doesn’t acknowledge how bad and how detrimental colonialism was; that people don’t really try to explore it, you know, in popular media and news articles; that . . . that it’s just kind of glossed over as this thing. You know, that it’s really . . . It means that we’ll never really come to an understanding of what that does and how not to have that happen again. You know it will mean that people will just . . . that people will accept that that’s the way it goes when it really doesn’t have to be that way, you know?

Recorded on: 10/7/07

Transcript: Yeah, of course. I mean I think . . . I don’t know, I guess I think . . . maybe because I’ve been reading, you know, a lot about it recently. But I mean I think . . . I mean especially within the . . . you know if you . . . This will go back to the idea of being a Nigerian American, and of being . . . I mean that interaction, that . . . The idea of colonialism, and this idea that a certain set of people are more entitled to a certain kind of life than other people; whether it’s north, south, east, west, whatever . . . but I think that has been the thing that has driven pretty much all . . . It’s like look, we have a right to this existence. You guys don’t, but you have . . . you . . . your purpose here is to make sure we have the right to that existence. Terrible. I mean like that’s so many things. I think you see it shaping the world now, I mean especially in the way we behave as a country towards other countries – this idea like, look, we have the right to this particular way of life, and we’re gonna do whatever it takes to make sure that we continue to have that right and continue to enjoy this life. And I think you find . . . I think what we’re seeing is that that’s just not working anymore. It might have worked before where people . . . where it took a lot of time for news to travel. It might have worked before . . . before . . . like before there were things like the universal declaration of human rights where everybody understood that, look, we have a certain . . . It’s not just you guys who have the rights . . . like these rights. It’s everyone who does. It might have worked before when . . . when there was less interaction between certain sets of people, and less ability then to be outraged at the exploitation of people. But now it’s not going to work anymore, and I think we see that system kind of falling apart as we speak. But I mean I think if anything that is what . . . I mean the biggest thing I think that . . . whether you’re looking at colonialism; whether you’re looking at slavery; whether you’re looking at, you know, U.S. actions during the Cold War; whether you’re looking at the Soviet Union and their interactions during the Cold War; like that idea that we have a right to this way of life, and we’re going to do whatever it takes to preserve it without acknowledging that there are . . . are other ways of life that are equally useful and valid, that’s a problem. And I think you know . . . that’s not. I’m being heavily critical of this society, but I think other societies are in the same boat. And I think the idea is look, the more we rub up against each other, the more we see there are multiple perspectives that are each valid. And the more we realize that none of these perspectives . . . Again this goes back to the idea of having a multiplicity of . . . of . . . of sort of viewpoints in your growing up, in your existence. None of these perspectives exists . . . can exist without the other, and exist or reform without the input of the others. So you know this idea that this one is better than the other is really absurd, because this one is probably comprised of some elements of the other. And this is all getting very abstract, but I think that’s . . . that’s another force that you see more and more in this world that is shaping the way that people think. And you see it in the way that people look at the environment. And you see it in the way that people look at cross-cultural interactions. And you see it in the way that people look at now economics, right? I think that that is . . . that’s . . . You know there’s this one idea that like we are all discreet entities, and therefore I should do for me what is best for me. Versus this idea that look, we’re all interconnected and doing . . . Doing what’s best for you, if it means doing bad to another person is not gonna help you out at all, you know? But I don’t know. I feel like I’m talking a bit of fluff, so . . .

Recorded on: 10/7/07

Transcript: There are two things. One is I wanna make sure that I’m treating everybody as I would like to be treated. I wanna make sure that I’m, in that sense, doing the right thing. I’ll tell you right now like I grew up in . . . We grew up going to church, and I believe in God. I don’t know that I have the ability to define what, or who, or how God is. You know I think that religion kind of messes people up in that regard. That’s just my own personal philosophy. But you know I grew up going to church, and I think one of the beautiful things that you pick up from that or from any religion is that like, look, you have to treat people as people, right? People as everybody has an equal right to life. Everybody has an equal right to be on this earth, and to be happy on this earth, and to achieve on this earth. That’s kind of the way that I would like to try and go about living. I mean I think that when you grow up in societies where inequality is so prevalent, you obviously end up with a sort of . . . a skewed version of . . . You know it’s . . . that’s an ideal that you have to strive to achieve every single day because you’re constantly told, “No, no, no, no, no. You have to look at you first. You have to look at what you can do for yourself first.” And everybody is selfish, but I think that sort of, you know, looking at that idea . . . That’s the thing that drives me, I guess, is trying to get to that level where you can look at everybody and say, “Look, we all have a right to be here. We all have a right to try and do something. Like let’s help each other do that.”

So the second thing . . . That’s the first one, is like look, living by principles of equality. The second thing is . . . I mean sort of which goes into that, you know what I mean? Because it’s hard. It’s like can you strive for that at all times? Can you strive to push yourself to be the best so you can guarantee that that does happen for you and for others? And whether that’s in the work that you do, or in the interactions you have with people, that’s . . . you know that’s the sort of the . . . that goes hand-in-hand with the first part of the philosophy which is . . . like, you know, you’ve only got so much time, right? So in that time, like, you should make sure you excel and try to excel; but not excel as in, “What can I accumulate, or what can I do, or how can I . . .” but excel in that, like, let’s see what we can all do. How can you push everybody towards sort of a better . . . a better existence, I guess? You know I’m not . . . I’m not really articulating it very well, because it’s not . . . You know a lot of the things I think . . . A lot of these kinds of things – personal philosophies – are more emotional than they are, “Let me write it down on a piece of paper.” And you know it’s the sort of thing where you react to certain situations. Or your initial reactions to certain situations, whether it’s disgust, or anger, or happiness is based on this emotional understanding of what you want for yourself and those around you, right? So but I mean I think to sum it up, I think I was doing . . . In working on this next book that I’m writing, I interviewed a politician in Nigeria around the times of the . . . around the time of the . . . the presidential election that just happened. And I asked him, you know . . . because he was spouting off all these philosophies and awesome ideas, like, for improvement of society as a whole. And I was like, you know, “These are incredible. Why aren’t you running for office yourself?” And he said, you know, “A great man is one who makes others great.” You know and that’s the way that I try to live, is I wanna make sure that I’m trying to make others achieve their full potential. You know like he sort of crystallized everything that I was trying to like . . . trying to put together. You know and so that’s ideally . . . Of course in daily life I don’t think I live up to that. But I don’t think that . . . I mean I think the idea is to work to living up to that. I don’t think that one should beat himself or herself over the head if immediately you’re not like Jesus Christ or, you know, Gandhi or whoever. But I think the idea is to . . . to look at those examples and try to . . . try to operate in a way that every day you live, or every interaction you have pushes you further along to operating with that mindset.

Recorded on: 10/7/07

Transcript: You know we live in a society where time is never something that anybody has; you know, and where everything should be like now, now, now – instant gratification – and not . . . I mean it’s things like books, for example. Like Beckett’s, _________ Malloy, or “Things Fall Apart”. Or take anything by Toni Morrison. Those books often don’t get the attention they should because people are so into, “I want the pleasure. I want the pleasure.” And sometimes the pleasure is in the delay of pleasure . . . You know it’s in the . . . Let’s . . . you know let me sit with this. Let me marinate on this for a little bit and see . . . see what it brings out; see the different things it brings out of me instead of the reaction that I’ve been told I shouldn’t have and that I know I have. That’s not to say that’s bad. I mean like that’s a particular form of entertainment; but it’s one that I think is overdone in our society. And I think for me I can’t be entertained in that way all the time, you know? I need . . . Like that’s good sometimes. Sometimes you just wanna go out, see your action movie, be done with it, come home. You know and like you see “The Matrix” or whatever, you see whatever film it is, and you’re like, “Oh cool,” whatever. And then you come home and you’re like, “That was great.” But if that’s how it is all the time; if you’re bombarded with these images all the time; if you’re bombarded with stories that are like them all the time, you kind of . . . you feel a little bit empty inside. And I think there . . . there are other stories, other songs, other things that are not just made for you to dance to. They’re made for you to sit and really listen to. They’re made . . . there are books that are made for you to sit and puzzle over and spend time with. There are, you know . . . like and those . . . those, I think, we need to, as a society, pay more attention to.

Recorded on: 10/7/07

Question: What is your creative process?

Transcript: It’s just watching people. It’s interactions with each other, my interactions with people. Like I’m really just fascinated by how we deal with each other as human beings. And if anything, that’s probably the primary inspiration for anything and everything that I write. You know of course then you . . . you have all the other things that everybody always likes to hear about, which are like jazz music and this and that. And I’m like . . . I’m one of those people. Shoot. I hear a good song and I start thinking, “Oh shoot. You know there’s a story that can be told to this,” and whatnot. But you know again, it all goes back to like, oh, I remember seeing this woman in a café on the corner and she looked like this. What was going on there? You know what did I think was going on? What can I say about that? Or you know I read this newspaper article about child soldiers, and it’s like, oh shoot, there’s a lot to be said about this. What stories can come out of this? That’s . . . that’s really what it is, and that’s the biggest inspiration.

I think the thing that . . . that really bothers me, right, about work and work that I think doesn’t . . . that I don’t really like is work that doesn’t strive to . . . to look at multiple perspectives; work that oversimplifies things. That really irritates me, whether it’s in music . . . Like you look at, for example, rap music now versus rap music from, you know, a decade ago, two decades ago. I mean that was when I was like, what, four years old or something? You know but you go back and you look at . . . I had uncles who were listening to that sort of stuff. And you know when I got into high school or whatever, there were certain artists that were out. I mean you know that’s just one of the things. And it’s not just rap. It’s like music in general. I mean you look at some of these artists that come out now, and it seems so oversimplified.

Question: Why did you feel you could be the voice of a child soldier?

Transcript: I mean like you know when you . . . like when I . . . Every time I’ve gone back and read an interview or heard that said, I mean it does sound really absurd, doesn’t it? I mean like you read a magazine article and, oh shoot, now you think you can say whatever. It’s pretty . . . I mean like it is a little . . . it sounds a little silly. But I think the thing is you get . . . these things come from all angles, and you can . . . you can take something and blow it open and really try to explore it. I mean do I feel like I have the right to speak for anybody? I don’t really. I mean I don’t . . . I don’t feel that way, and that wasn’t the intention. It wasn’t for me to say, “I’m speaking for these sets of people,” because that . . . that would be absurd. Like the idea is let’s tell the story, and let’s see if we can add to a discussion, right? I don’t . . . I mean I don’t think . . . I think it’s the terminology. I think that speaking for, right, is very different from speaking, right? And when you assume that you have the right to speak for . . . When you say that, “I am speaking for these people,” you put yourself in a position of power over a certain set of people. You put yourself in a position of authority which I don’t think I have at all. I don’t have the right to speak for any child soldiers, and I’ve never thought I had. What I wanted to do is see was there a way to put out this story and see if I had . . . if we can . . . you know see if we can talk about some things and see if there are voices that can come into this discussion; see if I can add a voice. If anybody else has anything to say, come on. Let’s add this voice and let’s see what we can learn from this. And that’s . . . that was the idea. I mean it just happens . . . I mean it so happens that for me, the way of going about doing that was trying to write a novel. But you know there are people who . . . who have done that in many different ways; you know whether it’s through discussions; whether it’s through painting, or music, or whatever; and you see . . . But let me . . . let me see what I can say in particular about this sort of thing. And you know like it just . . . it came out the way it came out. It came out after listening to a lot of people speak about their own experiences. It came out after reading about a lot of people’s different experiences. It came out after studying different ways of . . . sort of the different ways that people are affected by trauma or violence. I mean it came out after listening . . . Really it came out after listening. I think that’s what storytelling . . . that’s what living is about. It’s about listening to and assimilating other people’s experiences into your own, and then using that to guide how you . . . how you move about in the world. I mean I . . . I think creating a story or writing a book is no different from living in that sense. And I mean that was really what it was.

Recorded on: 10/7/07

Question: What are the challenges that young writers face?

Transcript: So to go back, I mean I think one . . . The first challenge I would say obviously was . . . which we talked about for a while . . . was just the logistics of getting published. The second is tackling the ideas of discipline and dedication. And I think the third is kind of like having people take you seriously as a young writer. I mean I think a lot of people wanna attach that “young” and say that you don’t know anything about the world. And it’s true. There’s a lot you have to learn about the world; but I think at the same time, you know people don’t want to acknowledge that as a young person you do have a perspective, and that perspective is equally valid. And in some cases perhaps more open and more honest than the perspective of someone who’s a bit older. You know and that’s not to say that the older perspective should be thrown out. It shouldn’t. It’s incredibly important. But I think people need to give more weight to what young people have to say about the world that they see. I mean if you look at it . . . I mean if you look at a lot of the things that have been put together, like they’re being put together by young people.

Question: What is your advice to a young writer?

Transcript: I would say number one, don’t worry about getting published, just write. Number two, just write. Like those are the two things. Three is make sure you read. Like I think that’s another thing that happens a lot is people just think, “Oh, let’s just write. Let’s just write.” But one of the things my writing teachers always stressed, and one of the things we did in class – we read probably more than we wrote. And that’s the thing is you need to understand how people tell stories. You need to understand how stories, you know . . . the different perspectives, the different voices, the different traditions. So read as widely as you can, whether it’s fiction or non-fiction. I mean just read, read, read, read, read, because through that you’ll begin to . . . begin to understand how to craft your own story and how to put things together. I don’t think that that’s necessarily stressed enough, but . . .

Question: What impact does your work have on the world?

Transcript: One I mean I think . . . one is to bring . . . to bring a story, a particular story about this issue out into the world. You know child soldiers that . . . Child soldiers in general and child soldiers in Africa have been written about to varying levels of exposure. I mean like that I got as much exposure as I did, again, as . . . There’s . . . there’s . . . There are a number of factors involved in that; but I . . . I hope the book, because it’s had that much exposure, has been able to speak to people about the situation and get people thinking about the situation. And not just in terms of, “Oh, what can I do?” but how to understand emotionally this sort of situation. And that, really for me, was what the book . . . what writing the book was about. It was . . . you know I came into contact with this through reading the newspapers and speaking with someone who was a former child solder there. And I really wanted to do more to try and understand that perspective.

You know additionally I think the idea is just to show again, it’s like, you know in terms of certain voices. Like look, you don’t have to be an expert. You don’t have to, because I’m certainly not an expert in mental health issues, or child soldiers, or conflicts. You don’t have to be, you know, X number of years old. Like you . . . What you have to do is you have to be dedicated to telling a particular story. And you have to understand that that dedication is going to . . . to make you do the research. It’s going to make you do, you know, the fact finding that you need to do. And it’s going to make you sit down and really think about how you’re going to structure the story so that it does affect people.

Recorded on: 10/7/07

Transcript: You know I think the funny thing is at one point and time, I would have really sought a definition. I would have really sought to say that I identify with these set of people more, or that identi . . . And what has always happened when I tried to do that has been . . . you know being essentially slapped in the face. And look it’s not that simple, and it shouldn’t be that simple. And if you do try to simplify it, you’re doing great harm to yourself and your understanding of the world. So you know at this point and time, I sort of put that to the side and said you know what? The characterizations, the definitions are gonna come. And whoever it is that’s going to . . . to . . . to want you to fall into a particular line, whether . . . for whatever purpose is gonna . . . they’re gonna do that regardless of what you say. So for you, you have to create that own space for yourself. And that space is not one or the other. It will never be one or the other. It’s a space that’s infused with so many things. But I think what’s great about that as well is that, you know, being . . . Being Nigerian and being American, right, you understand . . . I mean like you begin to understand that it gets really, really absurd. Because being American, right, is being influenced by so many different cultures, and so many different traditions that have come into this country from . . . you know whether they were here to start with, or whether they have come in through immigrants, right? Being Nigerian is very much the same because the idea of being a Nigerian is influenced by all the different groups, and cultures, and subcultures that go on. And then you add to the fact that there’s a whole relation between Nigeria and, for example, the UK which colonized Nigeria; and now growing connections between Nigeria and the United States, right? And American culture through . . . whether it’s through hip hop music, movies, films, whatever, have come in and are now starting to influence the way that people think. So the idea of what it means to be Nigerian is actually . . . it’s a very . . . it’s a very fractured thing. It’s a mélange of things. And it seems different, okay, because everybody in Nigeria tends to have brown skin, right? That doesn’t necessarily mean everyone’s the same. Here you see the differences more, right? But at the same time people like to . . . to . . . to sort of smooth over that with, “Oh, we’re American.” But you know American, again, is so many different things. And you know in the end if I say I’m American, what does that mean that I am? That means I’ve taken bits and pieces from this, I’ve taken bits and pieces from that and put it into this identity. So I just, you know, say like for purposes of travel and characterization, right, if I have to show a passport, I’ll show which passport is most necessary, right? But when it comes down to what I think I am and how I perceive myself, I think, you know, acknowledging that it’s a whole . . . like a multiplicity of things allows me to better relate to myself and to other people, and to better deal with the world, you know, as whole I think.

Recorded on: 10/7/07

Transcript: Is “Black America” misunderstood?

Question: I think yes, there is a way that society looks at “Black America” or Black Americans as just this one thing. I don’t think there is enough understanding of how diverse Black America actually is. You know I could list a number of incidents that would suggest . . . you know that . . . It’s the same way that people actually treat Africa, you know, to a certain extent. People just think Africa is this one thing. So if you’re from Nigeria, then you’re the same as somebody from Kenya; not realizing that within Nigeria, right, we have 250 different ethnic groups, right? Two hundred and fifty different languages. And it’s the same here in the United States. I mean okay, so everybody speaks English; but being Black American isn’t the same thing for everybody. And I think the fact that that doesn’t get as much play, and that doesn’t get acknowledged as much in this society is to the detriment of both Black Americans and the society as a whole. So I think . . . I mean I think that definition needs to be changed. I think that attitude and idea needs more . . . needs to be blown open a bit more and needs to be explored. And I think you see it happening more and more these days. But I still think there is this general attitude that, oh, it’s just this set of people. It’s this . . . you know, like they all behave the same. They all act the same. They all . . . You know and things have changed, and are changing and are getting better. But I still think there’s that attitude that needs to be attacked and blown open.

Question: How would you describe your experience as a Black American male?

Transcript: I really don’t like questions like that, but . . . I mean because I would experience . . . I would describe my experience in the states as a person before anything else – a person who happens to be these different things. And so I don’t . . . I don’t know that there’s actually an answer to that question that would be fulfilling. So I think I’m just gonna skip it.

Recorded on: 10/7/07

Transcript: For me at least, I don’t take anything for granted is the way that I feel. Because you see . . . you see multiple ways of living. You see . . . your explicit . . . I think what happens here is that people get so used to this idea of . . . of . . . of America as a place where anything and everything should happen. And you know where . . . As Americans I think we’re a very entitled bunch. Or we, you know . . . And I think that’s . . . Having seen that that’s not the case around the world, you’re very aware of that. And I think everything here then takes on a new meaning. That’s not to say that . . . that . . . that . . . I mean like you know, when you say something like that, people tend to say, “Oh well you think you’re better than everyone else.” That’s not it at all. I mean I think everybody still falls into that. And I would say that I’m just as entitled . . . or I feel just as entitled and probably behave just as entitled as the next American, as the next person here. I think at the same time having the ability to step out, right . . . having the ability to be in another place and see how people perceive you as an American. And then not just see, but also actively participate in that perception of America is really . . . is a self-check. It’s a way of looking your behavior as a member of this particular society or this particular culture. And I think it leads to . . . For me at least, I feel like my life is completely enriched.

I mean being Nigerian obviously, or being a Nigerian American also means that I am a Black American, which is also another set of perspectives. I mean obviously given the history that Black Americans have in this society, it’s different for me because I’m not . . . you know I’m not . . . my family doesn’t go generations deep here. But you still experience the same things, and you still have that . . . that outlook, and you still have that way of seeing how things are put together in this society. And I think, you know having . . . Again, being in a weird way also not really being in, because you’re part of this . . . of . . . you are a Black American, right? I am a Black American, but at the same time it’s a different version, right? And it’s a multiple . . . it’s a different version. It allows . . . I think having those different versions of being a Black American allows multiple perspectives and, you know, different analyses of what being a Black American means. I think all too often this society has too monolithic a definition of what a Black American is. And I think having . . . you know being a Nigerian American, being black, being African adds to that definition, at least in my own case, right? And I think it helps in the larger sense if, you know, for all the people who are Black Americans from this part of the country, or from that part of the country; if you’re a Ghanaian American; if you’re a Nigerian American; if you’re a Caribbean American; to add nuance and structure to that definition of Black American, and to allow people to see that it’s not just one thing. It’s not just one culture, but it’s a multiplicity of cultures. And that’s important both for the recognition of that set of people as full citizens and also for the . . . for the . . . for the country as a whole.

Recorded on: 10/7/07

Transcript: Okay. Well my name is Uzodinma Iweala. Well okay. So I was born in Washington, D.C. My parents came over from Nigeria – my mom in the ‘70s, my dad in the ‘80s. And I mean it’s shaped . . . I was just talking with a cab driver about it actually on the way here. He is from Ghana and we were talking about that whole phenomenon. But I mean really it’s just that you have a dual perspective on so many things. I mean or you’re very used to looking at things from multiple perspectives because the frame of reference is always shifting. I mean you’re here in the United States and it’s one frame of reference. And you’re in Nigeria and it’s another frame of reference completely. And at the same time if you’re in a country like Nigeria, there’s so many different frames of reference depending on your ethnic group, depending on your level of income that, you know, you’re exposed to that all . . . that all jumble up against each other; that you’re constantly navigating different spaces, whether they’re cultural, or social, you know, economic. And I think you just get really used to doing that. I mean you also . . . I guess in my case because my family would go back and forth quite a bit, you would get used to traveling. So travel has been a very big and important part of my life, and experiencing different sorts of people, experiencing different cultures; whether that’s here in the United States or in any one of the various countries that I’ve been fortunate enough to go to.

Recorded on: 10/7/07